Survey: Are you planning to buy the new Leica M11?

[SrMi]

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3 hours ago, adan said:

I saw someone ordering an M11 at our little local shop just yesterday. Trading in a huge stack of Nikon lenses, including a 500 f/4 and such - plus his 4-month-old M10-R (he was also taking delivery of a Canon R of some kind, and likely some Canon lenses).

I have to stop in tomorrow anyway, so I will ask them what delivery time-frame Leica quoted the store for his order. I may end up with an M11 sooner than I thought.

I do recognize there is a huge "sticker-shock" factor here, for those of us who haven't bought a new M in a few years.

My M10s (as I think I already mentioned) were both less than $7000 new, 4-5 years ago.

But since an M10-R (black chrome, not paint) or M10-M are listed for the same price as the M11 at B&H, that "inflation" has been in place for a while.

..................

BTW - it occurs to me that with the increasing number of Asian M-mount lenses being sold (I plead guilty - 2 C/V f/1.4 lenses in my stable), Leica may have decided their camera bodies can no longer reliably be priced as "loss-leaders" (well, more or less) to promote lens sales.

They need to charge enough for M camera bodies to make a profit and cover development costs, even if folks buy only the camera, and then load it up with used Leica lenses, Voigtlanders, TTArtisans/7Artisans, and so on.

 

 

M10 was launched in 2017 for $6495. That would be $7400 today.

Edited January 17, 2022 by SrMi
Corrected year.

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[Jeff S]

10 minutes ago, SrMi said:

M10 was launched in 1997 for $6495. That would be more than $11k today.

https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1997?amount=6495

M10 launched in 2017.

Jeff

[thomasstellwag]

was too late, deleted

Edited January 17, 2022 by thomasstellwag

[relms]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:18 AM, jplomley said:

Will be sticking with my M10-R, M10M and SL2. My next bit of dosh will be going to either a 24 or 21 APO L lens (if they ever manage to get it out the door)

Not a bad set of tools.

[IkarusJohn]

Hmm, I paid NZD 11,860 for my silver chrome Monochrom in 2013, and NZD 13,500 for my M10-D in 2018.  The M11 is NZD 15,250, which is NZD 250 less than the M10-R.

I seem to recall I paid NZD 12,000 or so for the M9 and 35 Summicron ASPH - I think the M9 was about NZD 9,500 in 2010.

If I am to be in the market for the M11-P, or M11-M, or M11-D, or maybe even M11EVF, I will need to sell some stuff off; but the prices don’t really seem that out of kilter with prior pricing - eye watering, yes.  Surprising?  No.

[adan]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

M10 was launched in 2017 for $6495. That would be $7400 today.

Probably. Maybe even $7500 (different calculator).

Seems like after 2-3 years of annual Leica price hikes, it was already pretty close to that, even then.

What was the list price of the M10 (plain vanilla) when the M10-R replaced it? Or the last M10-P?

(actually - dpreview's last listed price for the regular M10 is $7995 - I don't know if that is accurate, though)

OTOH - to get the 60 megapickles of the M11, one would have to buy 2.5 M10(vanillas) and bolt and sync them together somehow - and get 3 matched lenses.

Doesn't the classic theory of market economies tell us that the "correct price" for anything is - what people will pay for it?

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[SrMi]

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9 minutes ago, adan said:

Doesn't the classic theory of market economies tell us that the "correct price" for anything is - what people will pay for it?

 

Don't tell Leica that :)!

[adan]

I think Leitz/Leica has known that (with a few lapses) since 1925.

[Jeff S]

In the US, most Leica product prices were increased by roughly 10% to spread the effect of the 25% tariff on German lenses during the last Administration. 
 

Jeff

[Ba Erv]

9 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

In the US, most Leica product prices were increased by roughly 10% to spread the effect of the 25% tariff on German lenses during the last Administration. 
 

Jeff

Those tariffs were lifted in March 2021 yet Leica raised their prices on April 1.  Moreover, US retailers had already increased prices on German optical imports to reflect the tariff increase.  Even after the tariffs were rescinded retailers did not return to previous pricing and Leica added the aforementioned increase.  The result was a win for Leica and retailers…not so much for consumers.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Ba Erv

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

On 1/15/2022 at 11:32 AM, pgk said:

By offering a cheaper version - as all other makers do. Tried and tested. Cheaper body (with 'lower' specifications), same lenses and lots of upgrade potential.

They tried that in the 70's with the CL and the M5.  The CL sold well and they think in hindsight it stole sales from the M5.  Just something to consider ... 

[Jeff S]

7 minutes ago, Ba Erv said:

Those tariffs were lifted in March 2021 yet Leica raised their prices on April 1.  

The increase related to tariffs came in January, 2020.. 

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2019/12/leica-price-increase-coming-jan-1-2020/

The 2021 increases were prompted for other unspecified reasons, possibly exchange rates or supply issues.

The tariffs were suspended for four months in March last year, but I never read more about them after that.

In any case, Leica M product line prices have soared since the M10 launch, well beyond any tariff explanation, but I thought it should be mentioned.

Jeff

[Ba Erv]

14 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The increase related to tariffs came in January, 2020.. 

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2019/12/leica-price-increase-coming-jan-1-2020/

The 2021 increases were prompted for other unspecified reasons, possibly exchange rates or supply issues.

The tariffs were suspended for four months in March last year, but I never read more about them after that.

In any case, Leica M product line prices have soared since the M10 launch, well beyond any tariff explanation, but I thought it should be mentioned.

Jeff

This isn’t really the venue to discuss the matter nor my knowledge of the particulars.  Suffice to say, Leica didn’t get hurt over the WTO decision but consumers sure got bent over.

[Jeff S]

Hence my last paragraph.

Leica customers were offered some of the same lenses at lesser costs from Portugal to avoid the German tariff. So not all bad.

Jeff

Edited January 17, 2022 by Jeff S

[adan]

26 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The tariffs were suspended for four months in March last year, but I never read more about them after that

Suspended further for 5 years as of June 15, 2021, while the US and EU "discuss" the airliner trade dispute further.

................

Anyway, here's a little "happy" tid-bit for all M photographers - whether they want the M11 or not. Did you know that the M body proportions are almost a perfect match to the Golden Rectangle, with side proportions of 1.618:1?

Le Corbusier, eat your heart out!

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[Jeff S]

Another reason why an external EVF doesn’t belong.

Jeff

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, adan said:

Suspended further for 5 years as of June 15, 2021, while the US and EU "discuss" the airliner trade dispute further.

................

Anyway, here's a little "happy" tid-bit for all M photographers - whether they want the M11 or not. Did you know that the M body proportions are almost a perfect match to the Golden Rectangle, with side proportions of 1.618:1?

Le Corbusier, eat your heart out!

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

No wonder Carlo Alessi called the M3 one of the few designs of the 20th century which he thought was so perfect he would never try to change. Hands off, Jony Ive!

[hteasley]

I'm probably going to skip a generation. M10 is still awesome.

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[91ststudios]

I had an M9 back in 2011-2014 and greatly enjoyed it during the daytime. It got to the point where I'd rather just shoot film as the M9 basically had the same ISO range, so I sold it. I never considered it good enough to be used in a professional workflow (no SD card backup and poor ISO), so I kept my 35 LUX/50 LUX on Sony/Panasonic bodies for cinema use. Earlier this year, my fiance picked up a Q2 and I fell in love with Leica all over again. It was so much improved from what I experienced before, so I put my name on the list for the rumored M11. 

The expectations I had were met with the announcement and with the internal storage backup option, I feel safe using it in professional environment. Being able to choose resolutions for assignments just makes sense and I feel like these features really cater to professionals more so than in the past. I feel like most reviews I've seen glaze over this, but the backup with sd card is such a huge deal. Most clients I do assignments for require dual card cameras, and so I now I can finally carry an M with me. 

Right now, my question is availability and when I might see this camera? I had a ton of trade in credit with B&H, so I placed an order there on day one, but also have a great relationship with the store in D.C that kept me on the list. I'm just hoping to get it before the end of February/early March, but what should my expectations realistically be? 

[strohscw]

I was at the presentation of the M11 last Friday. Here are my comments on it:
1.) Sensor: Seems to be a real step forward for those who need more pixels.
2.) Housing: Looked at the silver and black housing. I like them both and they both make a very good impression. I also like the fact that the black case is lighter, it's noticeable. If then I would take the black one.
3.) I like the new electronic viewfinder, the higher pixel count and also the image stabilization in zoom are an advantage.
4.) I have not yet come to terms with the fact that the M11 no longer has a sensor that measures the exposure at the shutter curtain. Although it has the advantage that now really all old lenses can be used without exceptions, but now the camera is always in LiveView mode with all its disadvantages (speed, easier sensor soiling, . . .) but also the advantage that the exposure is measured directly on the sensor (Live Histogram).
I believe that there is still some development to come to eliminate the disadvantages.
5.) The omission of the base plate and a larger battery:
Well with the missing base plate I have no problem, the larger battery I see on the one hand as a big advantage on the other hand a new battery is always a problem if you, like me, a M10M has a different battery system and you now need two sets of spare batteries.
As I wrote before, the M10M is more important to me than the color variant, so I'm currently still more than satisfied with the M10R. In the meantime, I'll let Leica continue to work on their LiveView concept and when there's an M11M, I'll re-evaluate the matter.
As a colleague wrote earlier, the real stars of the M system are the M lenses, and these have always been my main focus.