CL and high ISO, noise and software (split-off thread)

[ECohen]

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I’m very much enjoying this thread. I am an X2 owner Its wonderful camera yet a little quirky. I bought this when considering APSC

I keep hearing good enough when regarding the CL…..and perception? Could someone tell me what is the highest usable ISO on the CL? Because as an indoor, available light, family camera the X2 and it’s APSC sensor is not good enough or am I missing something?

Were there great technological advances between the X2 sensor and the CL allowing it better low light performance? This is a serious question I don’t mean it sarcastically.

I know I am comparing it to older cameras with early APCS sensors but APSC sensors have never been good enough for indoor available light photography. 
 

[LocalHero1953]

6 minutes ago, ECohen said:

I’m very much enjoying this thread. I am an X2 owner Its wonderful camera yet a little quirky. I bought this when considering APSC

I keep hearing good enough when regarding the CL…..and perception? Could someone tell me what is the highest usable ISO on the CL? Because as an indoor, available light, family camera the X2 and it’s APSC sensor is not good enough or am I missing something?

Were there great technological advances between the X2 sensor and the CL allowing it better low light performance? This is a serious question I don’t mean it sarcastically.

I know I am comparing it to older cameras with early APCS sensors but APSC sensors have never been good enough for indoor available light photography. 
 

The max ISO I use with AutoISO is 2500 for the CL. For the SL2-S it is 12500, though the colour and noise pattern at 12500 are still better than the CL at 2500. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by LocalHero1953

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[jaapv]

15 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The max ISO I use with AutoISO is 2500 for the CL. For the SL2-S it is 12500, though the colour and noise pattern at 12500 are still better than the CL at 2500. 

Depends heavily on postprocessing. With Topaz AI software I find I can largely ignore such questions, since I learned how to use it properly. Mask the areas you want to be in critical focus in PS - a doddle with the new automatic selection, put on a layer, run Sharpen AI twice on auto, flatten and run Denoise AI. Takes two minutes, provided your computer can run AI programs smoothly. The image is lovely and crisp and virtually noiseless.

[ECohen]

51 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Depends heavily on postprocessing. With Topaz AI software I find I can largely ignore such questions, since I learned how to use it properly. Mask the areas you want to be in critical focus in PS - a doddle with the new automatic selection, put on a layer, run Sharpen AI twice on auto, flatten and run Denoise AI. Takes two minutes, provided your computer can run AI programs smoothly. The image is lovely and crisp and virtually noiseless.

Am I asking too much for good enough out of the camera for simple indoor low light photos?

As a retired pro who is always compromising you would think that this is a simple request. After all digital photography and the APSC sensor have been around 25 years.

That's a long time in the digital world. Or perhaps I just want to change the laws of Physics ?

[Kim Dahl]

14 minutes ago, ECohen said:

Am I asking too much for good enough out of the camera for simple indoor low light photos?

As a retired pro who is always compromising you would think that this is a simple request. After all digital photography and the APSC sensor have been around 25 years.

That's a long time in the digital world. Or perhaps I just want to change the laws of Physics ?

I have the same "problem" I have 35 f1.4 that I bought with my TL2 in 2017 - but I just bought 11-23 and 55-135 (used at a very good price) and have become much more happy with the system  .  But I also lack a bright wide angle 18 1.4 - for photographing family indoors.  I do not know if 18 mm 2.8 is quite sharp at 2.8.  I'm pretty critical when it comes to sharpness.  I work daily as a photographer with Nikon D5 and Canon R3 until March 2022 📷

If I'm critical and use FF then one might not be happy with APSC.  And then there is only Q left - if it is to be AF

[jaapv]

Well, I have this one, admittedly it was at 800, a bit underexposed and quite a bit of camera shake, it was pretty dark. I'll do some real high ISO later.

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Topaz Sharpen AI removed the motion blur on the statue in the first pass, crisped it in the second pass and removed the noise in the flattened image with DeNoise AI.

 

 

[jaapv]

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OOC:

 

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[Guytou]

47 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

I have the same "problem" I have 35 f1.4 that I bought with my TL2 in 2017 - but I just bought 11-23 and 55-135 (used at a very good price) and have become much more happy with the system  .  But I also lack a bright wide angle 18 1.4 - for photographing family indoors.  I do not know if 18 mm 2.8 is quite sharp at 2.8...

 

 

A search on Flick (photos with TL Elmarit 28 2.8) yields many images and several were taken at the f.2.8 aperture.
Personally I think it's really good !

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Guytou

Edited November 13, 2021 by Guytou

[lct]

3 hours ago, ECohen said:

I know I am comparing it to older cameras with early APCS sensors but APSC sensors have never been good enough for indoor available light photography.

I would not say so. I don't use Topaz or other softwares but i do use my CL for indoor shootings. 3200 iso can do it when i have an f/1.4 or f/2 lens. Cannot compete with the 12800 iso of my FF Sony of course but the CL with a tiny M lens is so discrete that i can take pics i would not with a larger gear. My usual focal lengths are 28, 35 & 50 then but wider lenses are generally too slow or bulky (for me) admittedly.

Edited November 13, 2021 by lct

[LocalHero1953]

I've used the CL for indoor available light photography since launch. It does the job, especially if you use the techniques Jaap describes.

[Boojay]

I think the CL does just fine in low light with higher iso. Three examples from the CL with the CV 15mm (1st version), such a light little lens and that really helps.  Think I probably braced myself against something, handheld think they are all shot at f/4.5 1/30th and  ISO 2000/3200/4000 - only noise reduction will have been in Lightroom.  I actually have less trouble with CL images than with the SL2.

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[jaapv]

4 hours ago, ECohen said:

Am I asking too much for good enough out of the camera for simple indoor low light photos?

As a retired pro who is always compromising you would think that this is a simple request. After all digital photography and the APSC sensor have been around 25 years.

That's a long time in the digital world. Or perhaps I just want to change the laws of Physics ?

Yes, you are asking too much. Postprocessing has come so far that it is too much to ask for optimal quality OOC from ANY camera. 

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, ECohen said:

Were there great technological advances between the X2 sensor and the CL allowing it better low light performance?

Good enough, certainly: (ISO 1600)

 

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[cpclee]

6 hours ago, ECohen said:

Am I asking too much for good enough out of the camera for simple indoor low light photos?

As a retired pro who is always compromising you would think that this is a simple request. After all digital photography and the APSC sensor have been around 25 years.

That's a long time in the digital world. Or perhaps I just want to change the laws of Physics ?

I still shoot film so anything faster than 800 to me is "high ISO"!

[nicci78]

This is my Leica’s max ISO settings :

M9 : 1,280 ISO 
M Monochrom : 10,000 ISO 
M : 3,200 ISO 
T : 6,400 ISO (X, X Vario should be similar)
Q : 25,000 ISO 
M10 : 25,000 ISO 
CL : 25,000 ISO 
Q2 : 12,800 ISO 

Those are my optimal settings for big monitor screen viewing and big prints. 

My sole criteria : no banding. Leica chose to keep maximum sharpness, minimum colour noise but luminance noise can be high. 
And I am ok with that because when printed luminance noise will not be noticeable. 
 

Edited November 13, 2021 by nicci78

[ymc226]

5 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

This is my Leica’s max ISO settings :

M9 : 1,280 ISO 
M Monochrom : 10,000 ISO 
M : 3,200 ISO 
T : 6,400 ISO (X, X Vario should be similar)
Q : 25,000 ISO 
M10 : 25,000 ISO 
CL : 25,000 ISO 
Q2 : 12,800 ISO 

Those are my optimal settings for big monitor screen viewing and big prints. 

My sole criteria : no banding. Leica chose to keep maximum sharpness, minimum colour noise but luminance noise can be high. 
And I am ok with that because when printed luminance noise will not be noticeable. 
 

Would the TL2 be similar to the CL?  I am trying to decide whether to get Topaz Lab's Denoise AI as it seems very capable and I would like to go higher than 6400 on my TL2 for shutter speed considerations.

[nicci78]

TL2 is different than CL because Leica naked noise reduction inside TL2 DNGs. But CL is free of any noise reduction in its DNG. 
But I think that you can use TL2 at 25,000 without any problem. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by nicci78

[ymc226]

4 hours ago, nicci78 said:

TL2 is different than CL because Leica naked noise reduction inside TL2 DNGs. But CL is free of any noise reduction in its DNG. 
But I think that you can use TL2 at 25,000 without any problem. 

Thank you very much Nicci.  I will try IS 25,000 with Topaz DeNoise AI.  

[ymc226]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

Well, I have this one, admittedly it was at 800, a bit underexposed and quite a bit of camera shake, it was pretty dark. I'll do some real high ISO later.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Topaz Sharpen AI removed the motion blur on the statue in the first pass, crisped it in the second pass and removed the noise in the flattened image with DeNoise AI.

 

 

Hello Jaapv.  Seeing your results, I just got both DeNoise AI and Sharpen AI; both will be used as Lightroom Classic plug ins.  Can you tell me how you perform multiple passes and use more than one editing program from the initial DNG?  Do you run the DNG in Sharpen from LR then save back to LR as a TIFF, then run that TIFF in Sharpen AI again, save that 2nd TIFF in LR and then run that 2nd TIFF in DeNoise AI and save back to LR as a third TIFF.  Finally do you then delete the first 2 TIFFs?

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[Louis]

I have tried few different sharpening programs but the best method I have found is “High Pass” in Photoshop. At least, this is the one that works the best for me.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Louis