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CL and high ISO, noise and software (split-off thread)


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On 11/13/2021 at 11:49 PM, nicci78 said:

AI based software absolutely needs a neural engine aka NPU. It is quite common in smartphones & tablet world since Apple A11 Bionic chip. But right now only in PC/Mac world only Apple M1 or M1 Pro or M1 Max have such thing in their SOC. 
Intel and AMD do not plan to add an NPU before years. On Windows you will need powerful but inefficient CPU and GPU for that. 

Intel is rumoured to integrate a VPU (kind of NPU) into future Meteor lake CPU in late 2023 at best. 
Since then we will be playing with Apple M3 generation SOC. 

So it is time to switch to Mac M1 😉 they are awesome. 
Of course you can wait for future Mac Pro with M1 Max Quadro and their octo NPU instead of only one on M1, M1 Pro and M1 Max. 

Hello Nicci, 

I agree that an M1 is needed.  I am waiting for the next MacMini with a M1 Max if they make it.  Hopefully next year as I want a non laptop based computer to go with the 2 Eizo 4K monitors that I just got.  Hopefully they will offer a 64 GB RAM version.

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On 11/14/2021 at 7:22 AM, ruskkyle said:

Have a look at the latest backside-illuminated sensors - they will give you something closer to the performance you want.

In Leica land that’s the SL2-S

I wonder if the next M11 will have a backside illuminated sensor?  

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8 hours ago, ymc226 said:

Hello Nicci, 

I agree that an M1 is needed.  I am waiting for the next MacMini with a M1 Max if they make it.  Hopefully next year as I want a non laptop based computer to go with the 2 Eizo 4K monitors that I just got.  Hopefully they will offer a 64 GB RAM version.

If you are only interested into neural engine. You can already buy the current M1 Mac mini with 16GB of RAM. 

Neural engine is exactly the same between A14, M1, M1 Pro and M1 Max. So you gain absolutely nothing by upgrading. 
 

Several tests show that 32GB is useless except if you work with 300MP files (huge panoramic, huge stack file and huge HDR photos) 

Neural engine did not benefit from larger RAM  

 

Current Mac mini M1 already support two 4K monitors. One through HDMI 2.0 and the other through Thunderbolt 3/USB-C 4. 
 

By the way M1 Mac mini is totally silent under load. 
M1 Pro and M1 Max MacBook Pro are not silent. 
 

 

For faster neural engine, we’ll have to wait for M2 based on A15. Which have 50% faster NPU than any M1 variants !! 

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On 11/17/2021 at 1:48 AM, ymc226 said:

2 Eizo 4K monitors that I just got.

That will only work if one of them has a Thunderbolt/USB-C connection. Although I heard of one person who found an USB-C/HDMI adapter that actually worked...

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10 hours ago, jaapv said:

That will only work if one of them has a Thunderbolt/USB-C connection. Although I heard of one person who found an USB-C/HDMI adapter that actually worked...

The two Eizo CS2740s are currently used with my 2013 "trashcan" MacPro.  One is via HDMI to HDMI;  the other Display port to mini Display port.  For calibration, there is also a need for USB A to USB B from each monitor back to the computer for communicating the calibration process or the sensor is not detected.  All the necessary cables (including a USB C cable) except the HDMI cable were included.

When I upgrade to the next generation MacMini with hopefully 4 USB C ports, I plan on connecting both monitors USB C to USB C but may still need the USB A/B cables attached.  Not a very clean install as there are 3 cables coming out of the monitor including the power cable.

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It is very doubtful whether that will work. I had a similar setup with a 2010 Cheesegrater and an Eizo CS240 and Eizo CS210. I could get one to work well  through the Apple HDMI DVI adapter after trying a number of third-party ones and I never got the other one to work on USB C  despite trying more than half a dozen ones. So I had to buy a native USB C screen by Samsung 24” and upgraded the other to an Eizo  CS 2410 which runs on HDMI -DVI to upgrade to full Adobe RGB (which my other Eizos were not )  I needed one USB C postprocessing for the Satechi hub (recommended) anyway. 

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On 11/18/2021 at 6:40 PM, jaapv said:

That will only work if one of them has a Thunderbolt/USB-C connection. Although I heard of one person who found an USB-C/HDMI adapter that actually worked...

I have one that works well
Club 3D ACV Electronic CAC-1332... https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B08PYTLY57?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

 

But you have to use MacOS ! 
With a 4K USB-C monitor like the LG Ultrafine 24” for Mac and iPad. 
No Thunderbolt 3 monitor like the LG Ultrafine 27” 1st and 2nd gen for Mac. 
No C4K monitor like LG Ultrafine 21.5” for Mac. 

 

I think that Eizo are USB-C 4K monitors. So it should work. 
 

NB : if HiDPI mode aka scale mode do not show. You have to let the Mac go to sleep mode then wake it up again. 
You may have to do it twice.

NB2 : the adapter is active and need to be powered by included USB-A to mini USB cable. 

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Edited by nicci78
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11 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

Are you putting a 4K screen on your iPad Pro?  
 

I have “the old” iPad Pro and am also very happy with it. Tanks 

With latest M1 laptops being so great. I will never buy iPad Pro ever again. 
Great hardware but poor OS. 
 

Before M1 iPad Pro hardware were way ahead of Macs. But today, Mac M1 have catch up and surpassed them. And being cheaper by the way. (If you add insanely priced Magic Keyboard) 

Sadly since 2017 and the first iPad Pro, iPadOS is still a huge deception. Adding cumbersome multitasking functions and refusing to give us real pro ones : like full 4K monitor support, better multitask, pro apps, etc…

Just buy iPad for your kids and your toilet. Macs are way better now 

 

NB : if your have excellent drawing skills. iPad Pro with ProCreate will be one of the best tool ever. 
But for anything else it is not needed anymore. And I am sick to being disappointed by every iPadOS updates. 
That’s why I got rid of my iPad Pro and got MacBook Air M1 instead. Which is awesome ! 

Edited by nicci78
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10 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

With latest M1 laptops being so great. I will never buy iPad Pro ever again. 
Great hardware but poor OS. 
 

Before M1 iPad Pro hardware were way ahead of Macs. But today, Mac M1 have catch up and surpassed them. And being cheaper by the way. (If you add insanely priced Magic Keyboard) 

Sadly since 2017 and the first iPad Pro, iPadOS is still a huge deception. Adding cumbersome multitasking functions and refusing to give us real pro ones : like full 4K monitor support, better multitask, pro apps, etc…

Just buy iPad for your kids and your toilet. Macs are way better now 

 

NB : if your have excellent drawing skills. iPad Pro with ProCreate will be one of the best tool ever. 
But for anything else it is not needed anymore. And I am sick to being disappointed by every iPadOS updates. 
That’s why I got rid of my iPad Pro and got MacBook Air M1 instead. Which is awesome ! 

Damn.. that’s a strong criticism for iPads

I have an iPad Pro 12.9” 4th gen. It works flawlessly with raw files across my camera gear.. I have an M1 Mac mini 16g ram too but nothing can beat the portability of iPad and being able to edit files on the go

Edited by aksclix
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A MacBook Air M1 maybe ? With fully fledge Lightroom classic ? 
 

I am very harshed about iPad Pro because it makes me hate iPads…. And I was once a believer of iPad can replace my laptop. 
I always owned an iPad since the first iPad ! 
But Apple let iPadOS down since 2017…. I am just sick of compromising with several simple tasks being so difficult or impossible to use on iPad, whereas so simple on any Macs or even PCs…
 

Then the svelte iPad became a huge truck with multiple add ons. iPad Pro + Magic Keyboard is unusually huge and heavy and not really practical next to MacBook Air M1. 
But your mileage may vary. But I chose my camp : a MacBook with macOS and an iPhone with iOS. No more room between them two.
Except for almost awesome iPad mini. But the latter due to software issues are not that much useful than iPhone Pro Max. Except for drawing. 

Edited by nicci78
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On 11/20/2021 at 7:09 AM, nicci78 said:

I have one that works well
Club 3D ACV Electronic CAC-1332... https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B08PYTLY57?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

 

But you have to use MacOS ! 
With a 4K USB-C monitor like the LG Ultrafine 24” for Mac and iPad. 
No Thunderbolt 3 monitor like the LG Ultrafine 27” 1st and 2nd gen for Mac. 
No C4K monitor like LG Ultrafine 21.5” for Mac. 

 

I think that Eizo are USB-C 4K monitors. So it should work. 
 

NB : if HiDPI mode aka scale mode do not show. You have to let the Mac go to sleep mode then wake it up again. 
You may have to do it twice.

NB2 : the adapter is active and need to be powered by included USB-A to mini USB cable. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Did you try it with M1/Big Sur? - because that is when the trouble starts...

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On 11/19/2021 at 7:25 PM, Kim Dahl said:

Are you putting a 4K screen on your iPad Pro?  
 

I have “the old” iPad Pro and am also very happy with it. Tanks 

I  am not a fan of 4K screens for editing - they make judging sharpening rather difficult.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Getting back to the original topic of noise reduction, my own experience with Topaz DeNoise AI is that it can yield very clean images but sometimes at the cost of nasty artifacts in out of focus areas. A superior NR approach, IMO, is DxO's Deep Prime which can be found as part of DxO Photolab 4 & 5 or all by itself in PureRAW. It works in the raw stage and supposedly removes noise during the demosaicing process. In my workflow, I drag high noise DNG files into PhotoLab 5 and run Deep Prime as the only adjustment (along with lens corrections). I then output the file as a DNG to my raw convertor (Capture One) and proceed as normal. The entire round-trip takes about 60 to 90 seconds on my computer, and the results can be almost miraculous.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/21/2021 at 6:21 PM, jaapv said:

I  am not a fan of 4K screens for editing - they make judging sharpening rather difficult.

I found that I will never go back to 1440p monitor after 4K or more resolution screen. You have to chose your scaling wisely. iMac 21.5" 4K, iMac 24" 4.5K, iMac 27" 5K, Apple Pro Display XDR or LG Ultrafine 21.5" 4K or 27" 5K are dealing with it superbly with a 4 pixels for 1 approach. It is crazy sharp but still readable. 

With other 4K monitors you have to dealt with scaling. But it works amazingly well. It is almost impossible to distinguish iMac M1 24" 4.5K at perfect 4 to 1 scaling of 2240 x 1260 pixels (perceived dpi of 109) vs LG Ultrafine 4K 24" for Mac at imperfect scaling of 2304 x 1296 pixels (110 perceived dpi)

LG 24" is a tad bigger than iMac 24" hence a slightly higher scaling resolution at 110 dpi

Keep in mind that every MacBook of any kind since the retina era are displaying image with imperfect scaling as default. Apple has excellent know how in this matter. So don't worry too much about it.

iPhone 6, 6S, 7, 8 Plus are all displaying imperfect scaling to match 1080p. Without any visual impact.

So use the scaling that you can easy read text with. And don't worry about it. 

 

However for 4K, I found that 27" or 32" are the best sizes. At 24" it is a bit small. And 43" it is way too big.  

1080p monitor are trash, don't use them.

 

I am upgrading from 2x Ultrafine 24'' for Mac to 1 Ergo Ultrafine 32" 32UN88A

 

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I thoroughly dislike Mac screens - too "poppy" in colour (great for display, but not so much for editing, even calibrated) To my eye the images look rather artificial and oversharp. In general 24" is just fine, only you need two of them. NEC or Eizo for me.

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I really like DCI-P3 screen, they seems quite right to my eyes. Of course we all have different taste.

We are also entering the HDR era. Dolby vision really amazed me. Sadly our cameras (13-15 stops) are no match with 22 stops of dynamic range required by Dolby Vision.

OLED panel can even reach infinite contrast. There will be a whole new way to edit and showcase our photos. 

With real HDR, blacks are really black and the sun will almost look like at it for real. Crazy cool. 

Obviously HDR is only accessible to video content, it is impossible to sustain 22 stops of dynamic on a static image. Otherwise the OLED will be burned in permanently.

But it will be possible with miniLED and microLED. And still camera technology are not ready yet.

But smartphone are ready !! Crazy how Apple and Google are getting ahead of camera industry with their tiny sensors. 

 

No wonder why in 2022, every Apple products are rumored to support OLED or miniLED screens. HDR is the way to go.

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