OhOh, future of CL?

[ramarren]

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14 hours ago, SrMi said:

If you click on TL-Lenses, you will be able to select CL or TL cameras. At least the Shop Now button works for CL. For APO-Summicron 35mm the Shop Now button leads to 404.

Oh, I know that. The "???" in my post was to say "All seems right there on the website for me...?"

G

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[NZDavid]

This thread seems to duplicate a lot of "My message to Leica AG in regards to CL!". I wonder if they could be merged?

Repeating my main message and it would be great ion Leica is listening: A lot of people need and want a compact, capable Leica with AF and interchangeable lenses. 

Not too hard, surely? 😀

[Louis]

You are right. I wish the poster had join the other discussion that was posted before!

[ruskkyle]

On 11/19/2021 at 2:28 PM, ruskkyle said:

Just spotted this. I think we all know the TL line is finished but it's the first time I've seen the 'flagship' Made in Germany lenses bundled into anything...

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Ok, so this is part of a one week sales initiative called Shopping Week, with other deals across the site. Explains the disruption.

[cpclee]

52 minutes ago, ruskkyle said:

Ok, so this is part of a one week sales initiative called Shopping Week, with other deals across the site. Explains the disruption.

A couple of years ago Dr Kaufman said he didn’t believe the APS C system had reached its potential and it was a matter of stimulating demand / interest in the right way. Perhaps this bundling scheme is their further exploration of how to best market the line.

[FrozenInTime]

9 minutes ago, cpclee said:

A couple of years ago Dr Kaufman said he didn’t believe the APS C system had reached its potential and it was a matter of stimulating demand / interest in the right way. Perhaps this bundling scheme is their further exploration of how to best market the line.

... or clearing out end of line stock, to that Vogue reading demographic that cares about style and has small change to burn on a Christmas present - thus falls for the Leica allure and 'ultimate set' tagline. At least they make a better purchase than the Hasselblad Lunar: The TL2 with 35/1.4 will be stellar at parties , the 18mm works well with a ski jacket and the 60mm is just the thing for taking insurance photos of your jewelry 🙂 

The world does not need a CL2 ... a TL3 lexus would be the must have accessory.

[Michael Markey]

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8 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

... or clearing out end of line stock, to that Vogue reading demographic that cares about style and has small change to burn on a Christmas present - thus falls for the Leica allure and 'ultimate set' tagline. At least they make a better purchase than the Hasselblad Lunar: The TL2 with 35/1.4 will be stellar at parties , the 18mm works well with a ski jacket and the 60mm is just the thing for taking insurance photos of your jewelry 🙂 

The world does not need a CL2 ... a TL3 lexus would be the must have accessory.

Yep ... friend of mine did just that .

Asked me a few questions about the brand and went out and bought a Q2 "for the aesthetic" .

I suspect that accounts for more sales than we imagine but does it make any  difference ?

Maybe if , as I suspect, that`s a large market .

[T25UFO]

On 11/20/2021 at 3:41 PM, ramarren said:

I'd love to have a digital Kodak Retina IIc... Such a sweet camera to shoot with! And the folder design is great for cycling ... folds flatter and protects the lens when I drop it into my cycling backpack.   

G

Or one like this . . .

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I had one of these, the ultimate pocket camera.  I guess it's far too small to fit all the digital stuff inside.  Shame.

[cpclee]

44 minutes ago, Michael Markey said:

Yep ... friend of mine did just that .

Asked me a few questions about the brand and went out and bought a Q2 "for the aesthetic" .

I suspect that accounts for more sales than we imagine but does it make any  difference ?

Maybe if , as I suspect, that`s a large market .

 i don’t mind this cohort of buyers as i think they make used gear cheaper for me. next time please point your friend to the noctilux for the ultimate chic

[Tortuga]

On one side, the M has no competition. If the camera is the right camera for a user, there is no alternative except for a used M. Leica puts a lot of effort on the M camera line.

On the other side, there is a lot of competition for the C-lux and D-lux cameras. Leica rebrands Panasonic cameras. They probably feel the can’t add sufficient value to make it worthwhile to develop their own camera.

The L-mount APS-C cameras are somewhere in the middle. Only Leica knows if they are getting the expected return on investment, and if it makes sense to keep investing in them.

 

[thedruid]

Well think about it a four year old APSC body alone is $3195 in the US...but you can get it with the 18mm at B+H for $3095, where as Nikon's full frame Z5 is now on sale for $997. Thats a tough market.

[Le Chef]

9 minutes ago, thedruid said:

Well think about it a four year old APSC body alone is $3195 in the US...but you can get it with the 18mm at B+H for $3095, where as Nikon's full frame Z5 is now on sale for $997. Thats a tough market.

I look at the "competition" and despair. They are heavy, particularly with FF lenses, and they are carbuncled with a frenzy of buttons all over them. Did none of the designers ever look at what Jonny Ive did for Apple, or what Bill Moggridge did for the whole UI/UX design industry? The simplicity of Leica's UI comes as a relief when you compare it to the messes from Canon/Fuji/Nikon/Panasonic/Sony. It's a shame that simplicity won't continue with a CL2...

[cirke]

I am selling my CL and T lenses ...

[jaapv]

Well, if we look at price development, that does not like like Leica is ditching the camera. It may well be that we will see a temporary holiday reduction, like 2019 which was Covid-carried through.

 

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[cpclee]

8 hours ago, thedruid said:

Well think about it a four year old APSC body alone is $3195 in the US...but you can get it with the 18mm at B+H for $3095, where as Nikon's full frame Z5 is now on sale for $997. Thats a tough market.

Well, that why the various kit combinations exist.  An optimistic way of reading this is that if Leica were ready to abandon the line, they'd discount the individual items.  By offering kits they hope to motivate sales without pressuring the MSRP of future cameras. 

 

[cpclee]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

Well, if we look at price development, that does not like like Leica is ditching the camera. It may well be that we will see a temporary holiday reduction, like 2019 which was Covid-carried through.

 

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My point exactly.

The APS-C / TL line of cameras and lenses were always more experimental.  That's apparent in the TL UI and the times when Kaufman or Stefans Daniels talked about the products.  I think they are not yet abandoning but are still exploring the market.

When the line launched the inherent assumption was the more economic pricing would offset the slowness of lenses and outsourced manufacturing, and perhaps they are now assessing whether they need to rebalance the equation.  The latest TL2 + 3 primes kit may be their way to test reception, though I think the CL would make more sense than the TL2 in such a bundle.

Technology is moving in a direction that favours continuing development of the APS-C line.  If people are hesitant about the format today will they stay hesitant when 50 or 75mp APS-C sensors arrive?  The Barnack concept will only become more apparent over time and if I were Leica's management I'd not hastily kill off the format.

Same can be said about the SL line.  If people don't already think it has basically killed off medium format, won't they begin to see that when 100mp sensors arrive?

Advances in sensor technology is redefining the positioning of sensor formats.  In the film days 35mm was the easily recommendable consumer format.  Today, I'm not so sure. I think I"d recommend APS-C as the starting point format for most people.

The challenge with APS-C is not one of performance but perception.  I'm sure Leica knows that and the bundling experimentation might just be their way of testing/modifying perception. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by cpclee

[ramarren]

15 hours ago, T25UFO said:

Or one like this . . .

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I had one of these, the ultimate pocket camera.  I guess it's far too small to fit all the digital stuff inside.  Shame.

I have one of those too ... the 35GT-E model ... One of the last 35mm cameras I bought new, somewhere about 1999. They're delightful cameras.

G

[Louis]

I really don’t see how is it possible to “upgrade” TL cameras unless they change the whole design, which wouldn’t be a “TL” any longer. They already removed the flash that came with the original T to free more interior space! The EVF that came with TL is also too expensive and very uncomfortable.

Furthermore, there is no need for two different ASP-C. 

Therefore, if they keep any APS-C, CL would be the most logical system IMHO.  They are not limited by the design or the size and they can change and improve it as they go along. So, if there is any continuation of Leica APS-C, I think it would be with CL.

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Louis

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[cpclee]

2 minutes ago, Louis said:

I really don’t see how is it possible to “upgrade” TL cameras unless they change the whole design, which wouldn’t be a “TL” any longer. They already remove the flash that came with the original T to free more interior space! The EVF that came with TL is too expensive and very uncomfortable.

Furthermore, there is no need for two different ASP-C.

 

I think in retrospect, Leica might have done much to confuse the consumer by lumping the CL and TL into one product line.  To me they serve two distinct segments.  The CL is a serious camera that is pro performance in a compact size (I think of the Olympus OM or Leitz-Minolt CL cameras from the film days); the TL is the trendy camera that chould draw beginner and female shooters (more akin to the Olympus PEN cameras from the film days).  The problem is the TL cameras make serious shooters take the APS-C line less seriously.  Had Leica stuck to an APS-C line with only the CL and the primes the perception might have been very different.

[ymc226]

18 minutes ago, cpclee said:

I think in retrospect, Leica might have done much to confuse the consumer by lumping the CL and TL into one product line.  To me they serve two distinct segments.  The CL is a serious camera that is pro performance in a compact size (I think of the Olympus OM or Leitz-Minolt CL cameras from the film days); the TL is the trendy camera that chould draw beginner and female shooters (more akin to the Olympus PEN cameras from the film days).  The problem is the TL cameras make serious shooters take the APS-C line less seriously.  Had Leica stuck to an APS-C line with only the CL and the primes the perception might have been very different.

I am a M and SL/SL2 shooter and just recently bought into the TL2 line to lighten the load when traveling.  I like the weight reduction so much along with the auto focus that I am using the TL2 almost exclusively even when I shoot locally.  I never used the CL but do not believe the TL2 to be less "serious."  They both use the same sensor.  Reading about the touchscreen interface and customizable menu convinced me to try the TL2 as I enjoy the iPhone type experience.  I use the camera for street like photos of my family when out, in auto ISO now to max 25,000, min shutter speed 1/125 and auto focus mode touch + release.  I got the entire TL line of lenses but shoot mainly the prime 18, 23 and 35 and they are all very sharp.  I found that the zooms slowed me down as I needed to decide how much to adjust the focal length and are a bit larger to carry around.

Not that I've sensed this, but not having to hold the camera to your eye using the viewfinder but using it like an iPhone, the TL2 may be less conspicuous to people on the streets as you look like a less serious photographer.

The camera + lens combo (especially with the 18 and 23 primes) are very light and compact; so much so, I actually bought 3 TL2s and am contemplating getting a 4th as a back up.  The colors are still close enough to my digital Ms and SL line of cameras that I can use them interchangeably.  Each camera is mounted with a different prime so no lens change is necessary and all 3 can fit in a small to medium sized messenger bag.  I used to carry either 2 SLs, each with zooms attached or 2 M's with about 4 lenses.  Now my bag is smaller, lighter and I'm happy with the technical quality of the photos.