M10 Monochrome: Is the APO worth the price on a purely B&W camera?

[Cayenne]

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Hi all,

First, let me thank everyone for all the help and patience I've gotten so far on my posts to the list.

I had a thought as that while I save money, I'm busy researching lenses.

I was considering the ultimate purchase I hope to make sone day, the SUMMICRON-M 50 APO.  Of course I'll rent one and try it out first....but the thought occurred to me about the "APO" aspect of it.

If I understand correctly, this is for correction of chromatic aberrations.....but, if I'm shooting a M10 Monochrom camera, do I really care about this?

Would an APO vs a non-APO lens make much if any difference to me since I'll never be shooting color with the camera?

Sure, if I thought I might in the future get a color of film Leica, well, then getting APO would be likely good planning ahead for needs.

But if you were to consider shooting a monochromatic camera ALONE....does it make any sense to go for the APO version of the lenses vs the non-APO ones and saving a bit of $$ along the way?

 

Thank you in advance!!

cayenne

[zeitz]

Apochromat means that three wave lengths of light focus to the same point.  (Superchromatic means that four wave lengths of light focus to the same point.)  And you do care even when the sensor is monochrome because your subjects will reflect differing wavelengths and you want them to focus to the same point); ie the subject is not monochrome.  Chromatic aberrations will show up as soft edges even in B&W.  I would also assume that there are differences between the APO and non-APO versions for the other important aberrations - coma, spherical, astigmatism, barrel distortion and field curvature.

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[zeitz]

I should also have added that even if the subject is pure black (R=0, G=0 and B=0), you will still have chromatic aberrations because black is a mixture of all colors.  Pure white (R=255, G=255 and B= 255) will not show chromatic aberrations.  Of course it is impossible to get pure black and pure white in nature because the source light has a color temperature.

Attached are two histograms for a black and white lens test target.  The Canon 800mm f8.0 lens is a doublet achromat designed about 1954.  The Nikkor P 800mm f8.0 lens is modified Ernostar or Sonnar design that is claimed to be an apochromat; the lens was designed about 1964.  The images were made on a Nikon D5 of the same target under identical heavy overcast lighting conditions.

 

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[didier]

You’ll get cleaner pictures with the APO-50, a kind of clarity you won’t get with any other M 50 Lens in my view.

Also, its resolution is amazing at all focusing distances, which - again - is not the case with all M 50s

Didier

[Jeff S]

One person’s aberrations/flaws is another’s character. There are lenses of all types...current and vintage... that play well on a Monochrom, just as with a color based M.  Your intent to test first makes sense, especially if taken to print stage.

Jeff

[BrianS]

If you shoot mostly with a deep contrast filter, Y52 and deeper- probably not. The deep color filters reduce the CA of a typical lens to the point where it is negligible. I learned that shooting with my 1934 5cm f2 Sonnar on the M Monochrom.

 

If you shoot without a filter, chromatic aberration causes the image to be soft on a monochrome camera. You cannot correct the CA in post processing as you can do on a color camera. The APO Summicron was introduced with the M Monochrom for this reason.

Edited November 4, 2020 by BrianS

[Cayenne]

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16 hours ago, BrianS said:

If you shoot mostly with a deep contrast filter, Y52 and deeper- probably not. The deep color filters reduce the CA of a typical lens to the point where it is negligible. I learned that shooting with my 1934 5cm f2 Sonnar on the M Monochrom.

 

If you shoot without a filter, chromatic aberration causes the image to be soft on a monochrome camera. You cannot correct the CA in post processing as you can do on a color camera. The APO Summicron was introduced with the M Monochrom for this reason.

 

Thank you ALL for the great explanations!!

Ok this makes more sense to me now.

I did buy this filter:

B+W 39mm Yellow Camera Lens Contrast Filter with Multi Resistant Coating (022M)

Does this look similar to the Y52 filter you mentioned by Hoya?

I pretty much keep this on the lens at all times (currently a Voigtlander Ultron 35mm).

 

Ok well...guess I"ll keep saving for that Summicron APO....but that may be a year or so away.

 

Again, thank you everyone for all the great input!!

cayenne

[Anakronox]

For punchier photos and more contrasty skies, try an orange filter, such as the MRC 40 from B&W.  One basically lives on my 35 Summilux FLE. Yellow tends to be slightly more flattering for female portraits.  I find that the orange is a good compromise and I happily shoot with it even at night. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Anakronox
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[BrianS]

4 hours ago, Cayenne said:

 

 

I did buy this filter:

B+W 39mm Yellow Camera Lens Contrast Filter with Multi Resistant Coating (022M)

Does this look similar to the Y52 filter you mentioned by Hoya?

I pretty much keep this on the lens at all times (currently a Voigtlander Ultron 35mm).

 

Ok well...guess I"ll keep saving for that Summicron APO....but that may be a year or so away.

 

Again, thank you everyone for all the great input!!

cayenne

That looks like what I use, a medium to deep Yellow. That will cut out must of the CA. 

Try for your self with and without the filter.

[Cayenne]

45 minutes ago, Anakronox said:

For punchier photos and more contrasty skies, try an orange filter, such as the MRC 40 from B&W.  One basically lives on my 35 Summilux FLE. Yellow tends to be slightly more flattering for female portraits.  I find that the orange is a good compromise and I happily shoot with it even at night. 

I believe I also got this same one you mentioned:

B+W 39mm Orange Camera Lens Contrast Filter with Multi Resistant Coating (040M)

 

I have shot a few things, but only in bright daylight...and ti does do some very interesting things.  Since it is, I believe, about a 2+ stop filter, I thought it might be too much for lower light instances?

I believe I shot this one (one of my first trips out with the new M10M) with the orange filter:

This was with the Voigtlander Ultron 35mm...my only rangefinder lens currently...

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[Anakronox]

Nice, that’s a good filter.  The M10M handles high ISO so well, I can shoot it in almost total darkness at 6400 and still get perfectly usable files.  I’ll see if I can dig an example or two out. 

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Edited November 5, 2020 by Anakronox

[Anakronox]

Another at ISO 6400. The M10M is a beast.

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[ECliffordSmith]

I can only second what Didier has said. The flat field of focus and sharpness across the frame to the extremes at all focus distances is remarkable. It does vignette wide open in case that is something that could be of concern to you but when matched with the M10M with the detail captured is incredible. The size of the lens is nicely balanced on the camera too and the visibility of the lens in the rangefinder is minimal (close focus with the hood). I questioned the expense as I had a 35mm Summicron (1st ASPH version) already but it never got sharp to the far corners and the focus shift and field curvature left me knowing I was not getting the most out of the sensor (and I was using an M8 before so I missed the near 50mm equivalent viewing angle). I have not regretted the purchase.

[Cayenne]

Just to know what I'm shooting for in savings....

Is a decent deal on a used 50 APO in the $6200 or so range?

[dkmoore]

11 hours ago, Cayenne said:

Just to know what I'm shooting for in savings....

Is a decent deal on a used 50 APO in the $6200 or so range?

$5800-6200 is common. There is one for sale directly from a Leica retail store on Leica.com as we speak. Go to Leica.com --> online store --> used --> M lenses

Edited November 7, 2020 by dkmoore

[robgo2]

On 11/4/2020 at 11:00 AM, zeitz said:

I should also have added that even if the subject is pure black (R=0, G=0 and B=0), you will still have chromatic aberrations because black is a mixture of all colors.  Pure white (R=255, G=255 and B= 255) will not show chromatic aberrations.  Of course it is impossible to get pure black and pure white in nature because the source light has a color temperature.

 

Actually, I believe that white is a combination of all colors and black has no colors.  When a beam of white light is passed through a prism, it is split into the spectrum of its component colors.

[zeitz]

Rob, you are right; thanks for the correction.  Attached is the center of the image that goes with the Canon doublet achromat.  I hope that you can see the red fringe on the edges of the black.  Color Picker in Photoshop measures the white as about R 220, G 220, and B 220 because I set the white balance / tint manually in Camera Raw to the same values for each lens I tested.  I should have been more careful on the white balance.

Inkjet printers receive RGB values from the computer, but print CMYK values.  So black R 0, G 0 and B 0 is no color, but the printer tries to print C 75%, M 68%, Y 67% and K 90%.  White R 255, G 255 and B 255 is all color, but it prints as C 0%, M 0%, Y 0% and K 0% - no ink.  

I believe I have a red filter that fits the Canon lens.  I should repeat the image with a red filter to get a single wavelength as pure as possible.  Chromatic aberration should be gone. 

No one noticed the extra spike on the far left of the histogram with the Nikkor lens.  These original Nikon F lenses used a common focusing module (CU-1) for 400mm, 600mm, 800mm and 1200mm lens heads.  The focus module has to be limited in length to design the shortest focal length lens of the set at 400mm f4.5.  The result is that the focusing module does not have enough length for close focus of the 800mm and 1200mm lenses.  The 800mm lens only focuses to 61 feet.  To fill the frame I used an extension tube to achieve focus at about 40 feet.  The extension tube causes heavy vignetting, which is the extra spike.  The Canon lens focuses with a Canon bellows R as well as an extension tube in front of the bellows; as a result the Canon 800mm can achieve extreme close focus.

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[Jon Warwick]

The M 50 APO is pretty perfect for an M lens, with high resolution and de minimus field curvature etc.

I'm not sure it's my favourite lens on the Monochrom, however. I tend to want my images to look as "analogue" as possible, and IMHO the very high acuity and high contrast of the 50 APO don't help in that regard, or at least need a lot of taming in post production to avoid being too "clinical", for my desired print output.  

I think it's a great idea to try one out and compare fully with alternatives to make a personal decision for what rendering you prefer.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Jon Warwick

[Cayenne]

On 11/8/2020 at 4:08 AM, Jon Warwick said:

The M 50 APO is pretty perfect for an M lens, with high resolution and de minimus field curvature etc.

I'm not sure it's my favourite lens on the Monochrom, however. I tend to want my images to look as "analogue" as possible, and IMHO the very high acuity and high contrast of the 50 APO don't help in that regard, or at least need a lot of taming in post production to avoid being too "clinical", for my desired print output.  

I think it's a great idea to try one out and compare fully with alternatives to make a personal decision for what rendering you prefer.

I think I'm looking to get that clinical sharp for those images I want it on, for the monochrom.

For when I want that more analog look, like you mentioned, I"ll use likely my adapted lenses or actual old lenses for those shots.  

I'm thinking it is much easier to get those analog shots than it is to get the high tech look with something like the APO. I'm also looking at the elmarit 28mm for a wide angle high sharpness look.

So, I'm of the thought to get the harder to get high tech look and use my older, less $$ lenses for when I want that older look...and have the best of both worlds.

While I LOVE the compactness of the Leica M system...it isn't that much for me to carry 1 extra lens (often with an adapter attached to it) along with the lens on the camera.

AT least, that's my philosophy to date...

C

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