SL2-S

[hamey]

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It's been very interesting reading about the SL2/s, I hope that history is not repeating itself once again.

I think I am one of the oldest on this forum (close to 72) and still remember the beautiful Leicaflex SL2 in the shop windows.

I would have loved to have bought one but owning and using the Leicaflex SL  decided not too, plus my Dad wouldn't give me the money.

With the Camera being so expensive Leica was loosing money on it, so they turned to Minolta, and the R3/XE-1 was introduced, hence the R system was born over the premature death of the Leicaflex reflex system. 

So is it going to happen again with all the speculation and rumors about the SL2/s on this forum,  is  it true about Leica looking at introducing a cheaper version of their SL2.

Are they once again looking at the land of the rising sun,  this time though it's with Panasonic, I still remember them as National Panasonic, I have made several trips to Japan and simply love the place.

As I have been told on several occasions that the SL system is not doing to well in the sales department,  is Leica looking at or to build a cheaper model in the likes of Panasonic (S5) 

Of course it will be branded MADE IN GERMANY, otherwise  the Leica aficionados will go ballistic.

I wonder if Leica will ever introduce  the SL3 built in Wetzlar,  they certainly never built the Leicaflex SL3,  as the cost become prohibitive, and remember at that time they never had another system in the likes of the  (S) system, can they afford to continue both the SL and the S  surely it must be a strain on their R&D, what does the future hold for one of them.

we are in for some interesting times indeed.

 

Note for CAISSA.   Check out the R3, The SL/2 is more like the R3 not the R4.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by hamey

[nicci78]

15 hours ago, Steven said:

I'm pretty convinced the SL2S will be the equivalent Lumix S5, but priced around 3.5K 

Do you guys think its coming in 2020? 

I was told by resellers : SL2-S is exactly the same as SL2 with 24MP BSI sensor instead.
4,990€ VAT inc. possibly postponed to March 2021 due to second wave of CoVid in Europe. 
Mid November Leica will released Q2 Monochrom. Same as Q2 without bayer filtre array and black dot instead of red logo. Slightly more expensive. 
However Monochrom may be postponed too...

No CL2 in foreseeable future  

so wait and see. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by nicci78

[Simone_DF]

Also you can easily find used SL2 for about 5k, so not much of a saving for people looking to jump into the system.

[caissa]

What did you expect. It is still built by manual labor, by specialists, living in europe. Not mass production like the S5.

Now finally people get what they want. A lot was written when/before the SL2 was announced, that 24 MP is enough and that people would prefer that. Really ??

But it is not small like the S5. I don't care, but maybe some users will prefer the size of the S5.

(I am not so sure if it is a good idea to split that niche market.)

Edited November 3, 2020 by caissa

[lx1713]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

So you’d give up half of the resolution to save 1k? That’s sounds not reasonable. There would have to be something more ? Probably in the video specs ....

Actually, very willingly ☺️ 

47mp is of course marvellous. But if your requirements are a comfortable 10mp, 24 mp becomes a nice buffer, 47 mp then becomes a tedious slog. Photography is meant to be enjoyed. I'm a professional but I love to shoot to coax the most of a situation. Rarely do I need 47 mp for fast run and gun but the SL2 is simply better than an SL for the job so I take the 47mp files, change my routines and backup. It's tedious. So what do I gain per week with a 24mp camera, 4-5 hours at least 😃. Would I keep the SL2, yes. Would I buy a 24mp SL2s, yes.

Anyway, it's all speculation at the moment. It's fun and we keep it at that 😉

Edited November 3, 2020 by lx1713

[Stuart Richardson]

I think it is probably seen less as an entry model than a version for all the people who say "24mp is enough, I would rather high ISO performance than more resolution, I want speed and video performance". If the body is the same, why would it cost much less? As Caissa said, the difference in price in the sensor is likely negligible in comparison to other costs in the system. They are probably making it cheaper because the SL2 has been out for a year and many people who would buy one new probably have, so by lowering the price and introducing a new variant, they have a chance to soak up a bit more people. It is a pretty classic move...introduce the expensive one first, and the pent up demand goes for that, and then introduce the lower cost variant a bit later and hopefully get a few more sales that did not quite pull the trigger the first time (and extra sales from the people who want both). 

[nicci78]

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I don’t know why you doubt that the 24MP sensor does not worth 1000€ less ?

just look at Lumix S1 and S1R launch price difference.
S1 was launched at 2500€ and S1R at  3700€. A price difference of 1200€ or 48% more expensive for the same exact body, but different sensor. 
 

Nikon Z6 II is launching at 2200€ and Z7 II at 3400€. 1200€ or 50% more for the same body. But higher MP counts.

Do not under estimate the higher cost of low volume specialised sensors. 
 

Leica is just entering the rank with two  bodies with just essentially MP counts  difference : A7 III - A7R III or Z6 - Z7 or S1 - S1 R or R6 - R5

Edited November 3, 2020 by nicci78

[nicci78]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

I understand the logic behind the strategy. All I’m saying is that with Leicas current pricing, to match the 48% or 50% ratio you’re referring to between the two models, the SL2S should be roughly 2k cheaper, not 1k. Because 4K multiplied by 1.5 is 6k, the current asking price for the sl2. 
 

I am more referring to the 1200€ less. Which the price difference between 24MP and 47MP sensors. 

Leica cameras being way more expensive than japanese counterparts. The percentage of 1200€ would be way less than 50%. Obviously.

SL2 higher cost is due to so many thing : better build quality, assembled in Germany with parts from Portugal, low volume high end products... So sensor costs difference should not be higher than other manufacturers.

Then again, being low volume. Leica is not able to give you more than 1000€ discount instead of the typical 1200€

[Simone_DF]

15 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I don’t know why you doubt that the 24MP sensor does not worth 1000€ less ?

just look at Lumix S1 and S1R launch price difference.
S1 was launched at 2500€ and S1R at  3700€. A price difference of 1200€ or 48% more expensive for the same exact body, but different sensor. 

I see your point, but the S1 and the S1R were launched together. SL2 is already one year old and can be easily obtained for less than the asking price.

Imagine yourself as a brand new customer willing to embrace the L mount. You will be able to get both cameras at the same price (if you get the SL2 from some other reseller or used). Even though for Leica it will still be a win win

[nicci78]

I am only reporting what I have been told. It is what it is.

Used SL2 is really rare. And not easily available. In France I had only encounter 3 that I known of. So not a real option.

1000€ cheaper, faster operation and better high ISO SL2-S can be a better buy than too many MP SL2 variant.

After more than one year of Q2, I came to the conclusion that 47MP are superfluous. I have to limit my Q2 to 3200 ISO whereas my CL can go as high as 25000 ! 

If I ever buy an SL2, it will be a SL2-S with 24MP. I won't jump into high MP trap again. 

 

 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

I have to limit my Q2 to 3200 ISO

I find even 800 ISO disappointing on the Q2 and I rarely go above 400. Same on the SL2, for the few weeks I used it. No problem with the M10 or Sony A7III or A7IV. 

[nicci78]

According to Peter Karbe. High MP counts help to achieved their moto of one shot two photos. Or Fish eye and eagle eye shot. 
Please crop crop crop ! 
47MP are useful if you want to only use one fast prime lens and crop your way in. Just like Q2. 
But is it really better than 24MP full frame with very highISO ability combined with excellent f/2.8 zoom ? 

[nicci78]

Still according to Peter Karbe’s art of M lenses. Modern M lenses except APO-Summicron-M 50mm asph. are not suitable for its really strict 50% MTF  wide open in the corners with 47MP. But it is with 24MP ! 
Of course M lenses can meet those requirements when stopped down. 

So 24MP may still be the sweet spot for legacy lenses. Especially if you want to use them wide open. 
Add IBIS in the mix, then SL2-S might be the most balanced camera in Leica’s line up. 
 

[nicci78]

M10 24MP sensor is different from Q/SL 24MP FSI one. All three are different than S1/S1H/S5 24MP BSI sensor. 
M10R 40.5MP FSI is different from Q2/SL2/S1R 47MP FSI sensor. 
 

M10R may be better than M10. Because it uses newer tech. 
However with same generation sensor 24MP will produced cleaner image than 45-60MP sensor. 
However 45-60MP can exchange resolution against noise reduction within Lightroom. But in the end you will lose 45-60MP sharpness. 

[SrMi]

38 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

<snip>

However with same generation sensor 24MP will produced cleaner image than 45-60MP sensor. 
<snip>

That is only true if you pixel peep. If you print or share online (same output size), 24Mp have AFAIK, never produced cleaner output than 45-60MP (same generation).

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, Steven said:

I don't understand this post. Can you explain ? 

What are your thoughts of M10P vs M10R sensor for low light ? 

Simplified:
The noise in the image is typically proportional to the sensor size, not to the resolution. However, higher resolution sensors show more noise per pixel than lower resolution.

When you compare higher and lower resolution images at 100%, you may see more noise in the higher resolution images. However, if you resize the images to the same size, e.g., when printing or sharing online, the output of higher resolution is at least as good as the lower resolution sensor's output.

You can see that demonstrated in the DPR studio scene where you can select to compare 100% or the matched size.

Sean Reid (www.reidreviews.com) has compared M10P, Q2, and M10-R at various ISOs. M10-R shows the best performance at the matched dimension.

[nicci78]

However with same magnification. Q2 high ISO image looks worst than CL at same high ISO;

I cannot bare ISO 12800 with Q2. 6400 is really borderline and better when converted to B&W

Leica encourages us to crop massively the 47MP to get 50 or 75mm equivalency for example.

With such crop, you’ll lose the pixel binning effect. And only left with ugly pixels

Edited November 5, 2020 by nicci78

[DaveV]

On 10/22/2020 at 3:18 PM, Leicaiste said:

Safari. It would be nice with this lens. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Could you please tell me what brand/model that hand strap is?

[Tom1234]

17 hours ago, Steven said:

On the M10R thread, there seems to be a unanimous agreement that the 47M sensor has given a new life to some M lenses, that you can notice some characteristics you couldn't before, and that it's a true revelation ! 

I compared myself the SL2 to the M10P today with a 35 1.4 lux ASPH pre fle, and they performed exactly the same on both sensors. 

 

One website mentioned that the higher resolution meg sensor helped show the character of older Leica lenses better.  I would like to see this effect in a comparison.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Tom1234

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[Tom1234]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

I think I can confidently report that this is true. I just took my first shot with the M10R. I used the 35 Nokton 1.4. On my M10P, I sometimes get frustrated how soft it looks. But with the sharpness of the 40mp, the creamyness just became pure character. It’s a great balance. Hard to explain, but so beautiful. 
 

I also feel the sensor of the M10R is nicer than the sl2 

Thank you.  Just keep the m10-R data coming.