Investing in new Equipment: M10 vs SL2

[jack-tucker]

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb ravinj:

Ok, that's good then. I spent over two decades in North India and feel there are better and more robust cameras to handle the heat, dust and humidity there, but this thread is not about that.

Well, I started the this thread and I wanted to find out what would be the right choice in my situation. I gave all this information right in the beginning. You were sating that your M was rock solid after 3 years of heavy usage and I responded to that. And as I said, the camera is not to be blamed. And I would not totally agree that the M is not the right choice in my situation – I have been working with Leica Ms in North India and whole of Southasia now since 10 years. I am just trying to find out if there could be even better choices...

All the best!

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, jack-tucker said:

Hi,

I think there is no need to start such a heated discussion, wether the SL2 is superior to the M or vise versa. 

And I was not so much interested in the image quality. Yes, I had read before about one layer coating on the M10 sensor compared to two layers on the SL2 and so on. But honestly, for real work both of them would be pretty fine. I have done exhibitions with large prints from M240 files and I don't think that there would be any issue with using the SL2 with M glass. Who can actually really judge the difference? I am searching for information about real life usage. And mostly I don't do even large prints but my work needs to be published in magazines and maybe books. For that even my old, old Canon7D was good enough, as was the 5DII. Obviously. 

Factors wich count for me are: reliability, responsiveness, the over all experience. Of course there are so many factors which can make a difference. The haptic experience of using an M definitely counts in my opinion but most colleagues would not care too much about that. Weight is a important point. Goes to the M, of course. Weather sealing on the other hand goes to the SL2. And so on. 

So far nothing was noted, which would want me to outruIe either of these cameras. I see, that there are many different opinions about which combination would be best. As stated before, I know I will just have to try it out myself.

How the prices will develop after another M will be out could also play a role in my case.

Yes, thanks. I haven't thought about the Q2 but it could be a great choice compared with the M10. I guess that could be a solution. AF and a bit of Video would be covered, when needed.

 

Thanks for your input. As I said, I don't believe any of them would be a bad choice. I just wanted to find out which would be the wisest thing to do (as far as one can talk about that connection with digital Leicas) – which brings me to this point:

Thanks, I will have a look in this direction as well.

All the best!

JMHO, but neither the M10 or SL2 can be considered "superior" to the other. 

They are two different cameras.  Each has its own set of capabilities and features.  Both are truly outstanding.  It is up to the individual photographer to have the discernment to be able to evaluate each camera and make a judgement call regarding which is a better fit for his/her specific needs.

Regarding printed image quality, the 24 mp sensor of the M10 is more than adequate.  I have a 24 mp camera (M-P 240) from which I am able to get exhibit quality 24x36 inch prints.  24 megapixels seems to be enough in my experience. 

IMHO, image quality is more about the quality of the lenses than it is about the sensors, provided we are talking about color images.  B&W conversions from a "color" camera (for lack of a better term) are another matter; the M10 Monochrom is a game changer in the world of digital black and white imaging.    Lens and sensor play a role to some degree as does image processing.  Both the M line of lenses and the SL line of lenses are on a level playing field in terms of real world image visible to the eye quality, as is the 28mm Summilux that the Q and Q2 has. 

Disclaimer:  I'm no one's version of a Leica "guru" or "expert" - the above comes from my own experiences and what I have learned by way of reading about Leica cameras and lenses.  Hopefully some of it will be of use.

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[Jim B]

1 hour ago, jack-tucker said:

As I have mentioned in the beginning, I don't blame Leica. I am working under not so friendly conditions, at times. I am based in North India and we are often facing hot and sometimes humid, sometimes dusty conditions. In summer it can be easily 45 degree and more. This has an impact on me and my equipment. Holding a camera in sweaty hands for hours, paired with dust.... It all leads to this:

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And this is after I already got the leather surface changed one time. Now I have the covering of the original M-P (analogue) which is much more sturdy. The focusing works still fine. But the shutter sometimes doesn't respond. And the ISO and Settings buttons are not responding very well either... It's ok, this one has done a great job, so far. 

Best,

Florian

Hi Flo,

If this is what happens to your cameras, I would just buy a less expensive Fuji. In all honesty, most people, including the people that partake on this forum can not even tell the difference in image quality. For the people that can, it’s just as easy to adjust the color and contrast in post, or buy a set of Leica presets from Thorsten. In a recent post, on the Leica face book group some posted picture from Canon 5d “original” old camera, and the same image from a Leica side by side. Half of the people guessed wrong.

If you have the ability rent the model you are interested in, and see if you can live with that. If you have money to blow, get a M10P with the nice half case and flip up back for added protection. 

 

[Jeff S]

IQ has been sufficient across camera brands for most people’s needs, specialty requirements aside, for some time.  For online JPEG viewing, a camera phone can suffice.  My purchase decisions relate primarily to viewing and focusing, controls and interface, ergonomics and handling, native lens options and, occasionally, specific feature needs such as weather sealing. For me, Leica priorities mesh well with mine, starting with top viewing and focusing systems (best RF in M, best EVF in SL, and gorgeous OVF in the S), and down to superb lenses.  And all with printing in mind as the end goal.  Others will obviously assess things differently... although this is a Leica forum after all.

Jeff

Edited July 6, 2020 by Jeff S

[ravinj]

2 hours ago, jack-tucker said:

Well, I started the this thread and I wanted to find out what would be the right choice in my situation. I gave all this information right in the beginning. You were sating that your M was rock solid after 3 years of heavy usage and I responded to that. And as I said, the camera is not to be blamed. And I would not totally agree that the M is not the right choice in my situation – I have been working with Leica Ms in North India and whole of Southasia now since 10 years. I am just trying to find out if there could be even better choices...

All the best!

Exactly - there is no "right" or "wrong" camera. If it works for you, that's what matters. There are always better choices out there for everything.

This thing never broke down even after a decade and was the right camera for me back then:

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[darylgo]

Florian, that is a great picture of your camera, and really a testament to how well Leica can withstand harsh conditions.  If you continue to use that body, you could sell it for a significant profit as these are in demand :-).  Seriously, with the environmental conditions known I would double down on my recommendation that you continue using Leica M however with a newer MP240, with that said, I don't think there is a poor camera amongst all the choices mentioned.    

Edited July 6, 2020 by darylgo

[Alexander-HH]

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I also love the picture of your well-used M, very reassuring! Given your connection to the M-System I think you will be well served by another (new) M. Let us know what you do in the end

Edited July 10, 2020 by Alexander-HH

[caissa]

I was surprised when I saw the state of your camera. I think the problem is that the real leather is constantly soaked in sweat and so starts to dissolve. (I know this from shoes.). As with shoes you should simply go away from real leather and ask Leica to replace it with “leatherette” which is based on some sort of “plastic”. The SL and SL2 have leatherette so they will likely stand the humidity much better.

Edited July 10, 2020 by caissa

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 7/6/2020 at 11:13 PM, jack-tucker said:

As I have mentioned in the beginning, I don't blame Leica. I am working under not so friendly conditions, at times. I am based in North India and we are often facing hot and sometimes humid, sometimes dusty conditions. In summer it can be easily 45 degree and more. This has an impact on me and my equipment. Holding a camera in sweaty hands for hours, paired with dust.... It all leads to this:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

And this is after I already got the leather surface changed one time. Now I have the covering of the original M-P (analogue) which is much more sturdy. The focusing works still fine. But the shutter sometimes doesn't respond. And the ISO and Settings buttons are not responding very well either... It's ok, this one has done a great job, so far. 

Best,

Florian

I see a half case in your future.

Gordon

[jack-tucker]

Am 6.7.2020 um 20:48 schrieb Jim B:

Hi Flo,

If this is what happens to your cameras, I would just buy a less expensive Fuji. In all honesty, most people, including the people that partake on this forum can not even tell the difference in image quality. For the people that can, it’s just as easy to adjust the color and contrast in post, or buy a set of Leica presets from Thorsten. In a recent post, on the Leica face book group some posted picture from Canon 5d “original” old camera, and the same image from a Leica side by side. Half of the people guessed wrong.

If you have the ability rent the model you are interested in, and see if you can live with that. If you have money to blow, get a M10P with the nice half case and flip up back for added protection. 

 

I got one as backup. X-Pro2. I like it, the image quality is good, but I can work so much faster with the Leica M. Menu settings, general handling... Temperature, the Fuji is getting quite warm after a while. Postproduktion is much faster with the Leica. 

I expect in many points the SL2 and the M10 would be similar, in therms of simplicity. I value the Fuji as what it is, but I would always choose the Leica over the Fuji.

[jack-tucker]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb caissa:

I was surprised when I saw the state of your camera. I think the problem is that the real leather is constantly soaked in sweat and so starts to dissolve. (I know this from shoes.). As with shoes you should simply go away from real leather and ask Leica to replace it with “leatherette” which is based on some sort of “plastic”. The SL and SL2 have leatherette so they will likely stand the humidity much better.

As I mentioned, with the last service I got the leather changed for the surface of the analog MP which is much more sturdy. So far good.

[jack-tucker]

vor einer Stunde schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

I see a half case in your future.

Gordon

Amen.

But I must say, that not using a half case initially was a conscious decision. Several later shoes, Leather parts of my camera bag, belts, got covered with fungus in the past, during the rainy season. That's why I didn't want to use a half case. But I also thought, that the next Leica body will get one which I would probably just use during the time I take the camera out for shooting.

Best,

Florian

[jack-tucker]

Hi there,

is has been quite a while... So I finally went ahead and got a brand new M10-P. I hope and actually think, that was the right choice. Probably I will even keep my old and run down M240-P. Haven't decided about that, yet. And for now I will keep the Fuji X-Pro2 as a back up. 

I waited long enough to have the M10-R in the game but decided it is not for me. Don't need the resolution and want to shoot hand-held most of the time. 

The SL2-S might have been a good choice, as well and I am glad that it just was announced after I bought the M, it would have made my decision even more difficult.  (I might get it at a later point in time, the combination of M10 and SL2-S could make sense and I could imagine that I would not need any other camera for a long time...)

Cheers,

Florian

 

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Edited December 15, 2020 by jack-tucker