Investing in new Equipment: M10 vs SL2

[Jeff S]

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3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I know many will not agree with me, but as a user of both the M10 and the SL2, I would recommend using the SL with L mount lenses and the M with M lenses. 

Exactly my usage (as noted above).  Different tools. Different experiences.  (And a native SL package benefits from weather sealing, too.)

Jeff

[Jon Warwick]

I had an M240 and recently moved to an SL2.

I started with an M 75mm lens on the SL2 ....my experience was fine, but i didn’t find it as fluid as using an M lens on an M body especially when working fast. Albeit for slower work on a tripod with the M lenses, the zoom function and peaking of the SL2 is superbly accurate .... it reminds me of the flexibility of placing a magnifying loop where I want on the back of a large format camera.

I recently got a native lens for the SL2 (a 50mm SL Summicron), and I can now see just how fluid and accurate the SL system can really be ....that, combined with substantially higher image quality to anything I achieved for large prints with my M240 and M 50 APO.  Also, I find the handling ergonomics (weight and balance) to be perfect when using an SL2+SL lens or M body+M lens, but less so when mixing it up with an SL2+M lens.

What this has taught me is the benefit of using the body+lens systems as originally designed.

 

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[Arrow]

On 6/30/2020 at 4:01 PM, jack-tucker said:

 

I am a working photographer doing mainly reportage, editorial, travel photography. 

 

Sounds like you are opting for reliability, too. I own and use the SL 601 and the SL2. Booth cameras have never let me down in use. Digital M´s have. So, I decided to go for the SL system. It simply offers more photographic options for a professional user than a digital M does. 

I got an Xpro3, too. I like it a lot, but I use the SL cameras more. 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Arrow

[jack-tucker]

Maybe I have not been totally clear – I am not planning to completely stop using Ms. First of all, I still have an analog MP, my second M. I bought it it 12 years ago after my M6 was stolen. I am not planning to sell it ever. 

Apart from that, I will always need a digital M body as well. My question is just wether I should stick with my M240 and put another, probably not to small amount of money in it, to get it repaired, or if I just should go for a new body. If new, it would be an M-10-P (I don't need the P but if I do this step it will be the P. Maybe I am just a bit stupid, but who isn't... no offense...)

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Arrow:

Sounds like you are opting for reliability, too. I own and use the SL 601 and the SL2. Booth cameras have never let me down in use. Digital M´s have. So, I decided to go for the SL system. It simply offers more photographic options for a professional user than a digital M does. 

I got an Xpro3, too. I like it a lot, but I use the SL cameras more. 

 

Many of you seem to believe the M is the most professional solution. And yes, I have been using the M for most of my work, personal projects as well as assignments, and it IS working well for me. But I doubt it is the most professional and reliable solution. I had some situations where it just failed me. For example, once on a trek on 5000m altitude. Thankfully there was another photographer who was nice enough to let me put one of my cards in his Canon so I could get the shot I was aiming for... But mostly it is working great for me. Definitely the camera I enjoy the most. And there is mostly some way to work around, even if the M is not the perfect choice of camera.

I was hoping that the SL2 could just be the professional and reliable second body which I can rely on, when ever the M doesn't work that well (video, AF, long lenses, IS). I am concerned about the EVF and how the focus peaking would work for me. Manual focusing on the X-Pro is not really for me and nothing compared to focusing a Leica M. I guess most of you will agree. But as I said, IF I would go for an SL(2), I would definitely also buy a native Lens, probably the Sigma 24-70 for the beginning and only later one or two of the Summicrons.

You see, I am still indecisive and I will have to try the SL for a day or better a couple of days. As I said, if I could only do the kind of work I really enjoy, there would be no question and I would just go for the M10-P.

Best,

Florian

 

[Jeff S]

I turn off focus peaking on my SL2 (too distracting and unnecessary), instead using back button auto focus and, if necessary, a quick fine turn of the focus ring, which I’ve set to engage magnification.  Many workflow options to consider.

Jeff

[ravinj]

44 minutes ago, jack-tucker said:

Maybe I have not been totally clear – I am not planning to completely stop using Ms. First of all, I still have an analog MP, my second M. I bought it it 12 years ago after my M6 was stolen. I am not planning to sell it ever. 

Apart from that, I will always need a digital M body as well. My question is just wether I should stick with my M240 and put another, probably not to small amount of money in it, to get it repaired, or if I just should go for a new body. If new, it would be an M-10-P (I don't need the P but if I do this step it will be the P. Maybe I am just a bit stupid, but who isn't... no offense...)

Many of you seem to believe the M is the most professional solution. And yes, I have been using the M for most of my work, personal projects as well as assignments, and it IS working well for me. But I doubt it is the most professional and reliable solution. I had some situations where it just failed me. For example, once on a trek on 5000m altitude. Thankfully there was another photographer who was nice enough to let me put one of my cards in his Canon so I could get the shot I was aiming for... But mostly it is working great for me. Definitely the camera I enjoy the most. And there is mostly some way to work around, even if the M is not the perfect choice of camera.

I was hoping that the SL2 could just be the professional and reliable second body which I can rely on, when ever the M doesn't work that well (video, AF, long lenses, IS). I am concerned about the EVF and how the focus peaking would work for me. Manual focusing on the X-Pro is not really for me and nothing compared to focusing a Leica M. I guess most of you will agree. But as I said, IF I would go for an SL(2), I would definitely also buy a native Lens, probably the Sigma 24-70 for the beginning and only later one or two of the Summicrons.

You see, I am still indecisive and I will have to try the SL for a day or better a couple of days. As I said, if I could only do the kind of work I really enjoy, there would be no question and I would just go for the M10-P.

Best,

Florian

 

I don't see the point of sinking more money into your M240 for repairs. Apart from rangefinder adjustment, what other repair did you have to get done? I am surprised that you had to spend so much on repairs. My M 240 (now sold) was rock solid even after heavy usage for 3 years. 

Kind of like sinking money into an old car for repairs that doesn't really get better. I learnt this expensive lesson years ago - at some point it is better to get a new or a good used one than spending money for that "one last time" on old clunkers.

Regarding SL or SL2 vs M : they can't be compared. Nothing comes close to M for M lenses and the shooting experience is totally different. Whether one is better than the other is subjective and I don't think they are mutually exclusive. An M, esp M10 with a 35 Lux or 50 cron just cannot be matched by any other interchangeable lens system considering the size and IQ. 

OTOH, if I was going on a long hike in the mountains and wanted to keep weight to a minimum without compromising on IQ, Q2 would be my choice. For me, it makes anything from 28-50mm redundant. Not to mention it is easy to shoot even with one hand and AF/metering is terrific - you appreciate these things when you are out there in the field. The other "benefit" of Q2 is the battery which is same as that for SL2 / SL and not having to deal with different batteries and chargers when space/weight is a consideration is a big plus. This is assuming you can leave the SL behind somewhere safe on day hikes.

I have used all of these toys. Take your pick.

Edited July 4, 2020 by ravinj

[Stuart Richardson]

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Not that I would steer you away from Leica, but you might want to take a good look at the Panasonic S1 or S1R as well. They are half the price or less than the SL2 and have quite a bit in common, including the lens mount and a nice natural color palette. I use both the S1 and SL2 together, and the files blend fairly well. The S1 is the winner for video and for high ISO, while the SL2 is the better stills camera and definitely plays better with M lenses given its thinner cover glass and offset microlenses. M lenses work ok on the S1 depending on the particular lens and aperture...the 35mm Summilux ASPH does ok, and is certainly usable for video. It suffers compared to the M lens performance at the edges, however. Some wider lenses are quite problematic, but most of the longer lenses are great. If you are primarily looking for a backup camera, an S1 would work superbly (and better for video, most likely), and it would give you the money to buy a better lens to use with it. If you like the L mount then you could probably move it for a similar price and exchange it for the SL2.

[Jim B]

On 7/3/2020 at 5:09 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

It sounds like you are more of a photographer than equipment lover (I don't mean any offense to people who are as interested or more to the gear), and given that is the case, I would recommend you stick with the M10P. The experience of using M lenses on an SL2 is very very different, and in my opinion better suited to slower work than any sort of dynamic work. You completely miss the clarity and simplicity of the rangefinder. Rather than looking through a clear window and making a quick and clean accurate merging of two images, you look into a screen which is displaying an image somewhat related to the actual scene you are looking at, interspersed with data, peaking info, a magnified view and often blocked shadows and highlights, depending on the contrast level of the scene. It is possible to fine tune your focus very well, such that it is more accurate for long or very fast lenses, but the simple joy of raising the camera to your eye and quickly and accurately focusing is gone when using manual lenses. With the native lenses the SL2 focuses very quickly and accurately, and is comparatively quick to use.

I know many will not agree with me, but as a user of both the M10 and the SL2, I would recommend using the SL with L mount lenses and the M with M lenses. If you are a dedicated M shooter, the SL2 will be an adjustment as the entire process of making photos is different. It is like driving a convertible versus piloting a submarine.

I find it comical that you think the rangefinder has clarity and simplicity. I guess you have not used any Noctilux on it like the new 75 F1.2. It blocks half the rangefinder window. The Sl2 makes it very easy, you can’t turn off any features you don’t want to see in the window and have it completely clear of information, or focus assistants. But being able to use focus magnifier, helps you nail pin sharp images everytime. The SL2 is the best choice for the new Noctilux M lenses....at least you can see the whole image!

[Jim B]

On 7/4/2020 at 12:41 PM, ravinj said:

I don't see the point of sinking more money into your M240 for repairs. Apart from rangefinder adjustment, what other repair did you have to get done? I am surprised that you had to spend so much on repairs. My M 240 (now sold) was rock solid even after heavy usage for 3 years. 

Kind of like sinking money into an old car for repairs that doesn't really get better. I learnt this expensive lesson years ago - at some point it is better to get a new or a good used one than spending money for that "one last time" on old clunkers.

Regarding SL or SL2 vs M : they can't be compared. Nothing comes close to M for M lenses and the shooting experience is totally different. Whether one is better than the other is subjective and I don't think they are mutually exclusive. An M, esp M10 with a 35 Lux or 50 cron just cannot be matched by any other interchangeable lens system considering the size and IQ. 

OTOH, if I was going on a long hike in the mountains and wanted to keep weight to a minimum without compromising on IQ, Q2 would be my choice. For me, it makes anything from 28-50mm redundant. Not to mention it is easy to shoot even with one hand and AF/metering is terrific - you appreciate these things when you are out there in the field. The other "benefit" of Q2 is the battery which is same as that for SL2 / SL and not having to deal with different batteries and chargers when space/weight is a consideration is a big plus. This is assuming you can leave the SL behind somewhere safe on day hikes.

I have used all of these toys. Take your pick.

This is misinformation. The Sensor in the  SL2 was specifically Designed for m lenses. I actually gained resolution using my m50apo on the Sl2 as it out resolves an M10

[Jeff S]

25 minutes ago, Jim B said:

This is misinformation. The Sensor in the  SL2 was specifically Designed for m lenses. I actually gained resolution using my m50apo on the Sl2 as it out resolves an M10

The M has one less filter layer than the SL2, which better optimizes M lens performance. Some M lenses don’t play well on an SL (Jono Slack review). The SL 50 APO performs better on the SL2 than the M 50 APO. The SL2 EVF might surely help focus fast M lenses (but so could the Visoflex on an M10)  and if the M had a higher resolution sensor (we’ll see with the M10-R), the M 50 APO would likely perform better on it than on the SL2.  For b&w, the M10 Monochrom is the ideal mate for the M50 APO, if resolution is paramount, given its effective resolution greater than 50 MP.

Jeff

Edited July 6, 2020 by Jeff S

[Jim B]

16 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The M has one less filter layer than the SL2, which better optimizes M lens performance. Some M lenses don’t play well on an SL (Jono Slack review). The SL 50 APO performs better on the SL2 than the M 50 APO. The SL2 EVF might surely help focus fast M lenses (but so could the Visoflex on an M10)  and if the M had a higher resolution sensor (we’ll see with the M10-R), the M 50 APO would likely perform better on it than on the SL2.  For b&w, the M10 Monochrom is the ideal mate for the M50 APO, if resolution is paramount, given its effective resolution greater than 50 MP.

Jeff

I have them, so I can draw my own conclusions. I don’t really see the point in saying that if the M10 had a higher res sensor because it doesn’t. The m 50 Apo and sl50 Apo Are two different beasts. The optical formula is different. All the Noctilux’s block have the range finder window, and when you use the Visioflex you loose  the hot shoe for lighting professional portraiture.  I can’t really see anyone using these new 75 1.25 and 90 1.5 on an M and being happy. I surely wasn’t 

[ravinj]

1 hour ago, Jim B said:

This is misinformation. The Sensor in the  SL2 was specifically Designed for m lenses. I actually gained resolution using my m50apo on the Sl2 as it out resolves an M10

Utter nonsense to take one lens and extrapolate that M lenses are better performing on SL2 than M10 or M240. Most M wides do not. 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Jim B said:

I have them, so I can draw my own conclusions. I don’t really see the point in saying that if the M10 had a higher res sensor because it doesn’t. 

The M10 Monochrom does.  The M10-R will.

 

1 hour ago, Jim B said:

The m 50 Apo and sl50 Apo Are two different beasts. The optical formula is different. 

Exactly the point, and why others might prefer SL lenses on the SL2, and M lenses on an M.  Weather sealing, too.  Diff’rent strokes...

 

1 hour ago, Jim B said:

All the Noctilux’s block have the range finder window, and when you use the Visioflex you loose  the hot shoe for lighting professional portraiture. 

Amazing that anyone successfully used a Noctilux on an M before 2015.

 

1 hour ago, Jim B said:

I can’t really see anyone using these new 75 1.25 and 90 1.5 on an M and being happy. 

Anyone?  
 

No right or wrong, but easy (for me) to understand different approaches and preferences.  I was merely presenting an alternative perspective.
 

Jeff

Edited July 6, 2020 by Jeff S

[Herr Barnack]

@jack-tucker, my recommendation would be as follows:

Try out a Q2.  If you like it, trade in your X-Pro 2 kit on a Q2.  This is an amazing little camera.  The 28mm f/1.7 lens is not a limitation but rather a challenge to the photographer to get closer to his/her subjects and to frame the shot with a higher level of discernment.  In the long run, the supposed "limitations" of the Q2 will improve your images, if you work to rise to the challenges it presents.

As for the M-P 240:  Trade it in on an M10-P and don't look back.

JMHO.

[Jim B]

1 hour ago, ravinj said:

Utter nonsense to take one lens and extrapolate that M lenses are better performing on SL2 than M10 or M240. Most M wides do not. 

We are talking about the 50m Apo. 

1 hour ago, ravinj said:

[Stuart Richardson]

9 hours ago, Jim B said:

I find it comical that you think the rangefinder has clarity and simplicity. I guess you have not used any Noctilux on it like the new 75 F1.2. It blocks half the rangefinder window. The Sl2 makes it very easy, you can’t turn off any features you don’t want to see in the window and have it completely clear of information, or focus assistants. But being able to use focus magnifier, helps you nail pin sharp images everytime. The SL2 is the best choice for the new Noctilux M lenses....at least you can see the whole image!

Hi Jim, you are correct. I have not tried those lenses. I find them comically impractical and expensive. I also mentioned in the very quote you made that the SL2 was more accurate for very fast or long lenses. Personally, I think the M is not about those lenses...they represent Leica trying to provide niche solutions and are targeted primarily at wealthy amateurs (If you really want shallow depth of field, shoot medium or large format...on an SLR with a 135-180mm lens). The strength of the M is having a compact, light and high quality camera that is discreet and fluid in its use. I can't imagine William Eggleston or Cartier Bresson lifting up an M with a 1kg 75mm noctilux and rocking the focus back and forth nervously making sure they got it right. So I agree that those lenses are better suited to an SL2. But if you are talking about a 35mm Summilux ASPH or a 50mm Summicron, those lenses are quicker and more fluid to use on an M, as long as your vision supports using a rangefinder.

[jack-tucker]

Hi,

I think there is no need to start such a heated discussion, wether the SL2 is superior to the M or vise versa. 

And I was not so much interested in the image quality. Yes, I had read before about one layer coating on the M10 sensor compared to two layers on the SL2 and so on. But honestly, for real work both of them would be pretty fine. I have done exhibitions with large prints from M240 files and I don't think that there would be any issue with using the SL2 with M glass. Who can actually really judge the difference? I am searching for information about real life usage. And mostly I don't do even large prints but my work needs to be published in magazines and maybe books. For that even my old, old Canon7D was good enough, as was the 5DII. Obviously. 

Factors wich count for me are: reliability, responsiveness, the over all experience. Of course there are so many factors which can make a difference. The haptic experience of using an M definitely counts in my opinion but most colleagues would not care too much about that. Weight is a important point. Goes to the M, of course. Weather sealing on the other hand goes to the SL2. And so on. 

So far nothing was noted, which would want me to outruIe either of these cameras. I see, that there are many different opinions about which combination would be best. As stated before, I know I will just have to try it out myself.

How the prices will develop after another M will be out could also play a role in my case.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Herr Barnack:

@jack-tucker, my recommendation would be as follows:

Try out a Q2.  If you like it, trade in your X-Pro 2 kit on a Q2.  This is an amazing little camera.  The 28mm f/1.7 lens is not a limitation but rather a challenge to the photographer to get closer to his/her subjects and to frame the shot with a higher level of discernment.  In the long run, the supposed "limitations" of the Q2 will improve your images, if you work to rise to the challenges it presents.

As for the M-P 240:  Trade it in on an M10-P and don't look back.

JMHO.

Yes, thanks. I haven't thought about the Q2 but it could be a great choice compared with the M10. I guess that could be a solution. AF and a bit of Video would be covered, when needed.

 

Thanks for your input. As I said, I don't believe any of them would be a bad choice. I just wanted to find out which would be the wisest thing to do (as far as one can talk about that connection with digital Leicas) – which brings me to this point:

Am 5.7.2020 um 04:04 schrieb Stuart Richardson:

Not that I would steer you away from Leica, but you might want to take a good look at the Panasonic S1 or S1R as well. They are half the price or less than the SL2 and have quite a bit in common, including the lens mount and a nice natural color palette. I use both the S1 and SL2 together, and the files blend fairly well. The S1 is the winner for video and for high ISO, while the SL2 is the better stills camera and definitely plays better with M lenses given its thinner cover glass and offset microlenses. M lenses work ok on the S1 depending on the particular lens and aperture...the 35mm Summilux ASPH does ok, and is certainly usable for video. It suffers compared to the M lens performance at the edges, however. Some wider lenses are quite problematic, but most of the longer lenses are great. If you are primarily looking for a backup camera, an S1 would work superbly (and better for video, most likely), and it would give you the money to buy a better lens to use with it. If you like the L mount then you could probably move it for a similar price and exchange it for the SL2.

Thanks, I will have a look in this direction as well.

All the best!

[jack-tucker]

Am 4.7.2020 um 22:11 schrieb ravinj:

I don't see the point of sinking more money into your M240 for repairs. Apart from rangefinder adjustment, what other repair did you have to get done? I am surprised that you had to spend so much on repairs. My M 240 (now sold) was rock solid even after heavy usage for 3 years. 

As I have mentioned in the beginning, I don't blame Leica. I am working under not so friendly conditions, at times. I am based in North India and we are often facing hot and sometimes humid, sometimes dusty conditions. In summer it can be easily 45 degree and more. This has an impact on me and my equipment. Holding a camera in sweaty hands for hours, paired with dust.... It all leads to this:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

And this is after I already got the leather surface changed one time. Now I have the covering of the original M-P (analogue) which is much more sturdy. The focusing works still fine. But the shutter sometimes doesn't respond. And the ISO and Settings buttons are not responding very well either... It's ok, this one has done a great job, so far. 

Best,

Florian

[ravinj]

8 hours ago, Jim B said:

We are talking about the 50m Apo. 

"We" are talking about M lenses, not one sample of out several.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[ravinj]

4 minutes ago, jack-tucker said:

As I have mentioned in the beginning, I don't blame Leica. I am working under not so friendly conditions, at times. I am based in North India and we are often facing hot and sometimes humid, sometimes dusty conditions. In summer it can be easily 45 degree and more. This has an impact on me and my equipment. Holding a camera in sweaty hands for hours, paired with dust.... It all leads to this:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

And this is after I already got the leather surface changed one time. Now I have the covering of the original M-P (analogue) which is much more sturdy. The focusing works still fine. But the shutter sometimes doesn't respond. And the ISO and Settings buttons are not responding very well either... It's ok, this one has done a great job, so far. 

Best,

Florian

Ok, that's good then. I spent over two decades in North India and feel there are better and more robust cameras to handle the heat, dust and humidity there, but this thread is not about that.