silverchrome Posted January 23, 2019 Share #21 Posted January 23, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just now, ramarren said: You're much pickier than I am. I bet I could find some marks of use, however. It doesn't take much... Most used equipment will have marks if you look for them! Especially Leicas! A used black paint leica with no marks whatsoever? That's why mint and as new should be used sparingly and taken with a huge grain of salt. It is practically impossible to find used leica items in mint condition. These words have simply become marketing BS to shift gear. Some sellers even make up their own grading systems where mint actually means rough and mint++++++ means near mint. I asked one European dealer recently about an M4 he had for sale. He said it was like new. I asked him to clarify because there were two obvious marks on the camera. He replied that he had overlooked the marks and offered to doangrade the like new to as new or something equally ridiculous! Price didn't change though! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 Hi silverchrome, Take a look here M10 Arrived but had to return. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marcg Posted January 23, 2019 Share #22 Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) I understand that you are in the UK. I also understand that you bought the camera online. In that case you are protected by the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 which came in force 2014 and entitle you to return anything which you buy at a distance – telephone, online – et cetera within 14 days for any reason. https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations Furthermore, if there are defects in the item you buy which appear within the first 30 days of the contract then under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you are entitled to demand a repair or a refund at your option – regardless of the seriousness of the defect. A defect which occurs within the first six months entitles you to demand a repair and if that repair fails then you are entitled to demand a refund or replacement at your choice. If you want to assert any of these rights then you should let the seller know in writing within the prescribed period. I would hope that anyone selling new or second-hand Leica cameras would be fully aware of their responsibilities towards their high-value customers Edited January 23, 2019 by marcg 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 23, 2019 Share #23 Posted January 23, 2019 1 hour ago, silverchrome said: Most used equipment will have marks if you look for them! Especially Leicas! A used black paint leica with no marks whatsoever? That's why mint and as new should be used sparingly and taken with a huge grain of salt. It is practically impossible to find used leica items in mint condition. These words have simply become marketing BS to shift gear. Some sellers even make up their own grading systems where mint actually means rough and mint++++++ means near mint. I asked one European dealer recently about an M4 he had for sale. He said it was like new. I asked him to clarify because there were two obvious marks on the camera. He replied that he had overlooked the marks and offered to doangrade the like new to as new or something equally ridiculous! Price didn't change though! That's why, if you're buying used and the vendor doesn't have a suite of photos to show the camera, you should first request a set of photos of the camera before making a buying decision. I generally ignore most 'marketing speak' entirely when I'm buying something. I want to see and evaluate what I'm going to buy. If that option is not available, I ensure that whatever I'm buying is 100% returnable for a short period of time, at the vendor's cost, at my discretion. Any vendor who refuses that, in lieu of not supplying detailed photographs, I don't do business with ... period. We can yammer back and forth about this until we're out of breath, of course. But if I'm looking for a way to afford a Leica camera, and used seems a viable option, I'm also willing to forgo "pristine, out of the box, new" condition for the sake of saving a couple thousand dollars. Two little paint chips like that on an obviously used camera would not put me off at all. I'd just paint them and ignore them. My beautiful M4-2 had much more wear than that when I bought it, it was rated "EXC++, Near Mint". The more serious issue was a gucked up rangefinder from years of sitting, and the vendor reimbursed me the cost of having the viewfinder/rangefinder cleaned, collimated, and calibrated. The rest was/is of no consequence. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted January 23, 2019 Share #24 Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) I think from another thread the OP has returned the camera. I know i have been dissappointed with 'over promised/under-delivered' items, but given every thing else was ok it would come down to getting over your initial reaction and judging the value, in this case, of three small marks against price saving. The UK cable for the charger will not fit in box so maybe why it was missing. Edited January 23, 2019 by pedaes Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 23, 2019 Share #25 Posted January 23, 2019 A dealer sold this camera so they SHOULD know how to grade equipment and that 'as new/mint' should mean no obvious signs of use. If they've charged a mint price for an EXC item then I'd be inclined to return it too or ask for a partial refund. OK you might keep it and drop the camera the next day and put a dent in it but that's not the point. And no, they shouldn't use 'as new', mint is the correct term. However what one person calls mint is another persons used and just 'good'. I keep seeing stuff on ebay described as new. It's not, because new stuff is unused and comes with full warranty. I've even seen an ad for a pair of new unworn trainers, with a photo of them being worn, outside!! That one went viral. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share #26 Posted January 23, 2019 To be honest the retailer., who is an authorised Leica retailer with 6 stores have put their hands up and said it shouldn't have been described as new. The MD said that their guide for describing used products is very clear as they do it on a scoring system. 1 = As new (indistinguishable from new) 2= Mint (used but no cosmetic damage) 3= Excellent (may show some signs of usage) 4= Good condition (may have some minor scratches and marks) 5=Poor condition (well used) Thay also give additional info, such as boxed or user manual missing etc etc I also found one at Leica London and asked to see some images as it was described as mint but when the images arrived I would have described it as good. I guess it's opento interpretation but to me Like New means no damage no matterhow small. Flyer 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted January 23, 2019 Share #27 Posted January 23, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) So they take it back? That would be fine for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 23, 2019 Share #28 Posted January 23, 2019 vor 51 Minuten schrieb Flyer: To be honest... To be honest, if I were you I wouldn't start every fourth sentence with 'to be honest.' It could be construed as meaning that you're BSing the rest of the time. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 23, 2019 Share #29 Posted January 23, 2019 27 minutes ago, Chaemono said: To be honest, if I were you I wouldn't start every fourth sentence with 'to be honest.' It could be construed as meaning that you're BSing the rest of the time. That's a good point, to be honest! I remember a training course I attended about 'public speaking' or rather giving presentations to clients - the tutor pointed out how many people used the phrase 'to be honest' and what that might sound like to the other party, especially when you're essentially selling your product/service! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share #30 Posted January 24, 2019 12 hours ago, Chaemono said: To be honest, if I were you I wouldn't start every fourth sentence with 'to be honest.' It could be construed as meaning that you're BSing the rest of the time. 🤔👍 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share #31 Posted January 24, 2019 12 hours ago, earleygallery said: That's a good point, to be honest! I remember a training course I attended about 'public speaking' or rather giving presentations to clients - the tutor pointed out how many people used the phrase 'to be honest' and what that might sound like to the other party, especially when you're essentially selling your product/service! Good point 🤔😂👍 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveclem Posted January 24, 2019 Share #32 Posted January 24, 2019 Seriously? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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