Jeff S Posted March 29, 2018 Share #401 Posted March 29, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) One Rangefinder forum post properly suggests there needs to be a re-covering of the camera to achieve proper match with the elephant skin bag. T.O. should also use off-cuts to bond to his lens hoods for an aesthetic match with travel bags – say $9000 each? TO has already said in his video that “exotic” straps are coming next. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 Hi Jeff S, Take a look here Luxury Camera Bags by Thorsten von Overgaard. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stuny Posted March 29, 2018 Share #402 Posted March 29, 2018 Have you aver seen an elephant's behavior near a dead elephant? They clearly mourn. I'm certain Jaap has seen this, as have we. Google "film elephants mourning" to see what I mean. This behavior suggests yet another reason why I consider the "elephant bags" to be reprehensible. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill_murray Posted March 29, 2018 Share #403 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) Samir I’m sure your point was well intended, but it is a point for a different forum, or thread at least... this thread should focus on the appalling decision by Thorsten Overgaard to make camera bags and other bags from the skins of endangered species, elephants in particular. Edited March 29, 2018 by bill_murray 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted March 29, 2018 Share #404 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) Certificates, certificates, certificates... the world is literally awash in certificates. Pretty cheap pieces of paper they are, too, compared to the price of your bags. https://samedaydiplomas.com https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axact I won't bore you: there are probably more fake-certificate mills worldwide than there are elephants. But here's the eye-opener: -- the world-ranking of corruption by country, 2012-16: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index Out of 176 countries, Denmark and New Zealand are tied for least corrupt. Congratulations to all Danes and Kiwis! My native Colombia is 90. But we're working to improve, honest! But lo - Zimbabwe is tied with Turkmenistan at 154! And North Korea comes last, but I guess not too far behind Zimbabwe. Even if the 24hr Bag weren't stoking the demand and price of illegal elephant skin, *which is the real argument here*.... how confident are you in those Zimbabwean certificates? Feel free to change your mind: I for one will just assume that you simply judged Zimbabwe by Danish standards. No harm done. And in that case I'm stil prepared to believe that you thought, in perfect good faith, that your bags were going to help to preserve endangered animals. I post the link to this thread again! Grace Mugabe has been found to have links with illegal ivory exports. In fact, she apparently took the ivory out herself. An ABC under-cover reporter discovered this whilst posing as an ivory buyer investigation into the ivory trade. Who would trust a certificate from Zimbabwe? http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/grace-mugabe-under-investigation-over-ivory-poaching/9595532 Edited March 29, 2018 by MarkP 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted March 29, 2018 Share #405 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) We can complain here all we like but it's the dollar bottom line that counts in business. The Australian cricket team is losing it's financial sponsors because of its disgraceful and unethical behaviour. The captain and vice-captain will now probably not be contracted to play in India this year ($2.5 million dollar contracts). One just applies the same to any business one considers unprincipled. I was going to buy two lens hoods from TO (or TvO - which one is it at the moment?) but that will now not happen. Oh, and I won’t be buying one of those bags. Edited March 29, 2018 by MarkP 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 29, 2018 Share #406 Posted March 29, 2018 We can complain here all we like but it's the dollar bottom line that counts in business. The Australian cricket team is losing it's financial sponsors because of its disgraceful and unethical behaviour. The captain and vice-captain will now probably not be contracted to play in India this year ($2.5 million dollar contracts). One just applies the same to any business one considers unprincipled. I was going to buy two lens hoods from TO (or TvO - which one is it at the moment?) but that will now not happen. If we try to ignore the fact TO's handbags are made out of endangered animals skin for a moment, I suspect he's not targeting them at the typical member here but rather at the type of person with too much money to know what to do with it, and no taste to care. I think there was a reference in his article to private jet owners.... He does of course target his courses and lens hoods to 'us' but having referred to 'us' as ignorant and unable to understand where Elephant skin comes from I think he's done irreversible damage to his reputation and business. I'm reminded of the time Gerald Ratner referred to his jewellery as crap and laughed about the type of customers who bought it. His business failed soon after (but sadly a lot of innocent bystanders lost their jobs as well). This is very much another example of the Ratner effect. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 29, 2018 Share #407 Posted March 29, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) « It's purely about the moral and ethical use of the skin of an endangered species being "procured" for the purposes of making a handbag ». I hear this and i would rather choose Hermes or Vuitton if i wanted a luxury bag but what Thorsten is doing is not illegal is it? Assuming legal requirements are complied with, morals and ethics can vary in different parts of the world and i'm not sure if an international photo forum is the best place to discuss about that. There are dedicated forums or the Barnack bar for that. Just my grumpy old lawyer's two cents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 29, 2018 Share #408 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) It was explained to me last year, when I was doing a classic car rally in the north east Shan state of Myanmar, that there was an enclave inside that state, effectively a sub-state called "Wa State". This state is completely ruled and run by asian organised crime and has its own well armed private army. Through this state a substantial proportion of the world's illegal wide life trade passes. There are large shops openly selling pangolin scales, powered rhino horn, ivory, tiger skins and assorted body parts, bear claws and so on. The criminals pay large bribes to the Myanmar military and Chinese officials to turn a blind eye to this. Sadly we have seen in recent months, how Burmese politicians, previously squeaky clean, can ignore world opinion, when it suits them. The shops in Wa state will provide any certificates of ethical origin, you might conceivably require, all duly stamped by Burmese and Chinese authorities. Therefore people like Overgaard cannot have any real idea where the skins used in their hideous bags really comes from. Wilson Edited March 29, 2018 by wlaidlaw 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W Posted March 29, 2018 Share #409 Posted March 29, 2018 Hideous bags pretty well sums it up. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 29, 2018 Share #410 Posted March 29, 2018 Hideous bags pretty well sums it up. Watching the video shows that money can buy many things, but good taste isn’t one of them. All of the bags shown - not just Thorsten’s - are hideous. However, I’d put the blue alligator ones at the top of the ugly pile, if anything is the antithesis of what people look for in a camera bag that’s surely it. I’ve never met anyone who uses what amounts to a shopping bag to hold their kit in, one hand is tied up in carrying the bag. I’ve heard of people using ‘real’ shopping bags to hide the fact that they’re carrying a camera, but that’s to avoide attracting attention, I can’t help feeling a bright blue bag with a bright red insert is going to do the opposite. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted March 29, 2018 Share #411 Posted March 29, 2018 « It's purely about the moral and ethical use of the skin of an endangered species being "procured" for the purposes of making a handbag ». I hear this and i would rather choose Hermes or Vuitton if i wanted a luxury bag but what Thorsten is doing is not illegal is it? Assuming legal requirements are complied with, morals and ethics can vary in different parts of the world and i'm not sure if an international photo forum is the best place to discuss about that. There are dedicated forums or the Barnack bar for that. Just my grumpy old lawyer's two cents. No its not about morals and ethics. Its about the survival of endangered species. You either care about their survival or you don't. And there are good scientific reasons for maintaining 'biodiversity'. Legalities are one thing (and far too often laws are riddled with loopholes and are very badly written) but the realities of survival are quite another. By the way, the thread was moved to be search engine accessible I believe. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 29, 2018 Share #412 Posted March 29, 2018 I post the link to this thread again! Grace Mugabe has been found to have links with illegal ivory exports. In fact, she apparently took the ivory out herself. An ABC under-cover reporter discovered this whilst posing as an ivory buyer investigation into the ivory trade. Who would trust a certificate from Zimbabwe? http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/grace-mugabe-under-investigation-over-ivory-poaching/9595532 Along with your ZImbabwean elephant skin certificate... Would anyone here like a Harvard doctorate? http://www.topdiplomaservice.com/SAMPLES/Fake_USA_Degrees/2016/0524/447.html Or the Lordship of the Manor of Bericote? https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/local-news/lordship-titles-sale-under-20-3917812 Or a von something-or-other? https://nobletitles.wordpress.com/tag/noble-titles-for-sale/ "Should you wish to become royalty immediately and take advantage of all the opportunities, please feel free to inspect our site and purchase one of our wonderful titles of nobility with all the grandeur it implies." 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 29, 2018 Share #413 Posted March 29, 2018 « It's purely about the moral and ethical use of the skin of an endangered species being "procured" for the purposes of making a handbag ». I hear this and i would rather choose Hermes or Vuitton if i wanted a luxury bag but what Thorsten is doing is not illegal is it? Assuming legal requirements are complied with, morals and ethics can vary in different parts of the world and i'm not sure if an international photo forum is the best place to discuss about that. There are dedicated forums or the Barnack bar for that. Just my grumpy old lawyer's two cents. "Assuming legal requirements are complied with" Legally, I am no doubt that you are completely correct. But, IMHO, that is an assumption that it is impossible to make when considering the use of endangered animal skins. There is too much money at stake, too much corruption, too much "turning a blind eye" that assuming that an exotic skin is legal just because it comes from a dealer in Minnesota (or wherever it was) who happens to have a certificate of authenticity (maybe signed by Grace Mugabe) is an assumption far too far. I do hope that Thorsten considers the wise counsel that he has been given by dozens of people on this side and on the German side of this forum, and elsewhere. Do the right thing Thorsten - come on. You know you can, and you'll be a better man for it. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted March 29, 2018 Share #414 Posted March 29, 2018 To help keep this on track, and to provide an outlet for related issues, I've started another thread in the bar: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/283209-a-spin-off-from-the-elephant-bag-thread/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 29, 2018 Share #415 Posted March 29, 2018 « It's purely about the moral and ethical use of the skin of an endangered species being "procured" for the purposes of making a handbag ». I hear this and i would rather choose Hermes or Vuitton if i wanted a luxury bag but what Thorsten is doing is not illegal is it? Assuming legal requirements are complied with, morals and ethics can vary in different parts of the world and i'm not sure if an international photo forum is the best place to discuss about that. There are dedicated forums or the Barnack bar for that. Just my grumpy old lawyer's two cents. The discussion originated in the Bar, but was moved by the mods so Google search could access it. Jeff 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted March 29, 2018 Share #416 Posted March 29, 2018 TO seems to have taken down the video and references to elephants on his website. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 29, 2018 Share #417 Posted March 29, 2018 Good man, Thorsten. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin B Posted March 29, 2018 Share #418 Posted March 29, 2018 TO seems to have taken down the video and references to elephants on his website. Means he must have received a lot of negative feedback, likely also included from Leica directly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 29, 2018 Share #419 Posted March 29, 2018 Thanks Jono Doesn't mean that he will stop selling elephant skin bags though... I would really like to see him state publicly that this is the case, not just go silent on the issue by changing his website. My glass is half full on this. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NERICSSON Posted March 29, 2018 Share #420 Posted March 29, 2018 I agree with Andy, this isnt over yet. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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