Luxury Camera Bags by Thorsten von Overgaard

[jaapv]

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Hmmm. I think I am meant in his response. I have been involved in conservation for thirty years, am in Africa for at least a month a year, and not in the Botswanean Russian Oligarch/Texan Billionaire reservations starting @ 2500 $ a person a night, as most Forum members are aware... I know what I am talking about and can see where the ignorance, or gullibility, lies.

[Michael Geschlecht]

How did you arrive at $20,000? That would mean an elephant is 444 square feet.

 

The average hide is 20 square feet. That is $900.

 

link:

National Geographic: Zimbabwe Elephant Auctions

quote:

"In 2007-16, according to CITES data (which are recorded inconsistently), Zimbabwe and South

Africa together exported the whole hides of 38,858 elephants plus another 609,000 square feet

and 21,504 pounds of skins and leatherwork. At an average 20 square feet per processed hide,

these would represent more than 30,000 elephants."

 

.

 

Hello Paul,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I did not write "$20,000.00".

 

I wrote: "Depending on how big & what parts are actually usable: That is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000.00 to $20,000.00 per elephant."

 

And, I think that that number is probably reasonably usable.

 

More reasonable than 20 square feet. Because 20 square feet is 4 feet by 5 feet which is probably less than the square footage of 1 side of a 10 foot tall elephant. And elephants have 2 sides. That is just the start.

 

If you take a 10 foot tall elephant & measure it: I think that it would probably provide somewhere around 70 square feet on either side. That makes 140 square feet.

 

It has probably another 50 or more square feet on its back.

 

It probably has 20 square feet on each leg. And since it has 4 legs: That means 80 square feet.

 

It probably has 20 square feet on its head.

 

Each ear probably has 6 square feet on each of 4 sides. That makes 36 square feet.

 

Don't forget the trunk: which is probably 16 square feet.

 

The underside is probably 50 square feet.

 

The front & the back part are probably another 50 square feet together.

 

And so on.

 

Already we have 442 square feet. More or less.

 

Elephant hides being valuable I would guess that the theory might be: "Waste not, want not."

 

442 square feet X $45.00 = $19,870.00

 

Some of which might be more usable than other, so:

 

I think my original estimate of $10,000 to $20,000.00 is reasonably usable as a starting point.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited March 28, 2018 by Michael Geschlecht

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[stunsworth]

Can everybody just hold fire for 5 minutes, I'm going to get the popcorn!

Sold out I’m afraid.

[Paul J]

Here’s the fact of the matter:

 

This specific bag is elephant hide from Zimbabwe, which is one of the countries that have a remarkable growth of in population of Luxodonta africana elephants (84,000) within their reserves. The sale of hides from naturally deceased elephants goes into funding the reserves, the security and veterinarians. In other words, the protection and growth of elephants. We do not use elephant skin from hunted elephants.

 

 

It’s my fault that I didn’t consider people’s feeling and ignorance on this subject. I’ve known all about these bags for more than a year, the history of the skin, the certification, the legality of different types of sources. My video mentions that the skin is certified, and when you buy a bag with exotic skin, you get a certificate for its origin.

 

But 15 pages of heated discussion without a clue to the facts! And an “administrator” going elephant man on his profile …

 

I’m a public person with a website that displays my phone number and my e-mail. Only esteemed forum member Jono Slack was sensible enough to not part-take in this sideshow, but e-mailed me directly to question how this works, and did his own research as well, opening more questions that he asked me.

 

Anyone who feel they want to do something about this should donate to for example www.earthorganization.org or www.savetheelephants.org

 

 

/Thorsten

It's your fault you didn’t consider our ignorance? Your ignorance, arrogance and lack of respect for the concerns of others, is a thing to behold!

 

People discuss all sorts of links, videos, stories on the internet and no one needs to email you for their blessing.

 

Your description has all the characteristics of Greenwash. It’s vague, dubious, and has no proof. It’s deserving of intense scrutiny it’s receiving - welcome to the realities of the commercial world, engaged in controversial matters. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

 

Your arguments are weak. They do not account for the bigger picture, just that what you think you know in Zimbabwe. They are listed in this thread - feel free to start addressing them.

 

I have lost all respect for you and it will remain that way until you start acting responsibly, respectfully, and get rid of these disgusting bags.

[jaapv]

Maybe TO should start reading the real experts instead of the apologists. A good place to start is a guy I met and can vouch for, a brilliant wildlife photographer and frequent contributor the Africa Geographic:

 

https://africageographic.com/blog/author/ian-michler/

 

I might add that the participants on the sites he links to would be horrified to be used for this kind of justification.

[Paul J]

Maybe TO should start reading the real experts instead of the apologists. A good place to start is a guy I met and can vouch for, a brilliant wildlife photographer and frequent contributor the Africa Geographic:

 

https://africageographic.com/blog/author/ian-michler/

 

I might add that the participants on the sites he links to would be horrified to be used for this kind of justification.

 

 

Thorsten could start by extending his reading material a little further than a leather vendors beliefs.

 

National Geographic quote "Leather Guy" Leather vendor

"Some people get upset about elephants,” says Tracy Brubaker, owner of the Minnesota-based vendor The Leather Guy  “Some people get upset about rabbits.

 

Thorstens youtube:

"Some people get upset about elephants. Some people get upset about rabbits"

[jaapv]

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Thorsten could start by extending his reading material a little further than a leather vendors beliefs.

 

National Geographic quote "Leather Guy" Leather vendor

"Some people get upset about elephants,” says Tracy Brubaker, owner of the Minnesota-based vendor The Leather Guy  “Some people get upset about rabbits.

 

Thorstens youtube:

"Some people get upset about elephants. Some people get upset about rabbits"

 

[Herr Barnack]

Here’s the fact of the matter:

 

This specific bag is elephant hide from Zimbabwe, which is one of the countries that have a remarkable growth of in population of Luxodonta africana elephants (84,000) within their reserves. The sale of hides from naturally deceased elephants goes into funding the reserves, the security and veterinarians. In other words, the protection and growth of elephants. We do not use elephant skin from hunted elephants.

 

 

It’s my fault that I didn’t consider people’s feeling and ignorance on this subject. I’ve known all about these bags for more than a year, the history of the skin, the certification, the legality of different types of sources. My video mentions that the skin is certified, and when you buy a bag with exotic skin, you get a certificate for its origin.

 

But 15 pages of heated discussion without a clue to the facts! And an “administrator” going elephant man on his profile …

 

I’m a public person with a website that displays my phone number and my e-mail. Only esteemed forum member Jono Slack was sensible enough to not part-take in this sideshow, but e-mailed me directly to question how this works, and did his own research as well, opening more questions that he asked me.

 

Anyone who feel they want to do something about this should donate to for example www.earthorganization.org or www.savetheelephants.org

 

 

/Thorsten

 

Quite a revealing response.

 

It reminds me of a guy who merges on to the north bound lanes of an expressway - but he is headed south - and yells with outrage," What the hell is wrong with you people??  You're all going the wrong way!!"

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Herr Barnack

[ianman]

Did he just shoot himself in the other foot ?

[stunsworth]

Thorsten could start by extending his reading material a little further than a leather vendors beliefs.

 

National Geographic quote "Leather Guy" Leather vendor

"Some people get upset about elephants,” says Tracy Brubaker, owner of the Minnesota-based vendor The Leather Guy  “Some people get upset about rabbits.

 

Thorstens youtube:

"Some people get upset about elephants. Some people get upset about rabbits"

Well, the basic difference is that elephants are an endangered species, whereas rabbits breed like, errr, rabbits.

 

I’m sure there’s no corruption in Zimbabwe, and that all those ethically sourced hides are ethically sourced - when he was president Mr Mugabe, a politician noted for his dislike of corruption, wouldn’t have settled for anything less.

[edwardkaraa]

The video and article he presented are his 'trial' and we, as Leica users he targets his products and services at, are the jury.

 

My popcorn is ready. Please proceed at your convenience.

[andybarton]

Wouldn’t it be better to save the elephants by not encouraging the use of their skins?

 

Sorry, Thorsten, your explanation is not likely to convince anyone here. I would never have had you down as so naive to believe that the skins you and your pal use really did die of natural causes.

 

I urge you to reconsider.

[andybarton]

I have just been out to walk my dog for an hour. She must have chased at least 20 rabbits. And not a single elephant.

 

To compare elephants to rabbits and chickens is just risible.

[Stealth3kpl]

Here’s the fact of the matter:

 

This specific bag is elephant hide from Zimbabwe, which is one of the countries that have a remarkable growth of in population of Luxodonta africana elephants (84,000) within their reserves. The sale of hides from naturally deceased elephants goes into funding the reserves, the security and veterinarians. In other words, the protection and growth of elephants. We do not use elephant skin from hunted elephants.

 

 

It’s my fault that I didn’t consider people’s feeling and ignorance on this subject. I’ve known all about these bags for more than a year, the history of the skin, the certification, the legality of different types of sources. My video mentions that the skin is certified, and when you buy a bag with exotic skin, you get a certificate for its origin.

 

But 15 pages of heated discussion without a clue to the facts! And an “administrator” going elephant man on his profile …

 

I’m a public person with a website that displays my phone number and my e-mail. Only esteemed forum member Jono Slack was sensible enough to not part-take in this sideshow, but e-mailed me directly to question how this works, and did his own research as well, opening more questions that he asked me.

 

Anyone who feel they want to do something about this should donate to for example www.earthorganization.org or www.savetheelephants.org

 

 

/Thorsten

"This specific bag is elephant hide from Zimbabwe"

Or elephant skin that was smuggled into Zimbabwe or derives from poached elephants within Zimbabwe and given a fake certificate, possibly?

 

"which is one of the countries that have a remarkable growth of in population of Luxodonta africana elephants (84,000) within their reserves"

and still suffers elephant poaching

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jun/20/ten-more-elephants-poisoned-by-poachers-in-zimbabwe

 

"The sale of hides from naturally deceased elephants goes into funding the reserves, the security and veterinarians."

And provides the opportunity for corruption and the masking of the elephant poaching that evidently goes on in Zimbabwe and other countries in Africa and elsewhere

 

"We do not" (THINK WE) "use elephant skin from hunted elephants."

But you can't be certain, can you? If bank notes can be forged, perhaps certificates of authenticity can. This is the problem Thorsten.

 

"It’s my fault that I didn’t consider people’s feeling and ignorance on this subject"

For goodness sake, Thorsten, take a look at yourself and question the validity of your assumptions. 

 

See also 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/11/wildlife-watch-asian-elephant-skin-poaching-myanmar/

and

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shocking-photos-reveal-terrifying-new-11308758

 

 

Pete

Edited March 28, 2018 by Stealth3kpl

[NERICSSON]

After Torsten response in here I received enough justification to leave him in the freezer...

Sadly since I really appreciated his photographic work and approach of photography...

[M9reno]

It’s my fault that I didn’t consider people’s feeling and ignorance on this subject. I’ve known all about these bags for more than a year, the history of the skin, the certification, the legality of different types of sources. My video mentions that the skin is certified, and when you buy a bag with exotic skin, you get a certificate for its origin.

 

Certificates, certificates, certificates... the world is literally awash in certificates. Pretty cheap pieces of paper they are, too, compared to the price of your bags.

 

https://samedaydiplomas.com

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axact

 

I won't bore you: there are probably more fake-certificate mills worldwide than there are elephants.

 

But here's the eye-opener: -- the world-ranking of corruption by country, 2012-16:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

 

Out of 176 countries, Denmark and New Zealand are tied for least corrupt. Congratulations to all Danes and Kiwis!

 

My native Colombia is 90. But we're working to improve, honest!

 

But lo - Zimbabwe is tied with Turkmenistan at 154! And North Korea comes last, but I guess not too far behind Zimbabwe.

 

Even if the 24hr Bag weren't stoking the demand and price of illegal elephant skin, *which is the real argument here*.... how confident are you in those Zimbabwean certificates?

 

Feel free to change your mind: I for one will just assume that you simply judged Zimbabwe by Danish standards. No harm done.

 

And in that case I'm stil prepared to believe that you thought, in perfect good faith, that your bags were going to help to preserve endangered animals.

[Jeff S]

Here’s the fact of the matter:

 

This specific bag is elephant hide from Zimbabwe, which is one of the countries that have a remarkable growth of in population of Luxodonta africana elephants (84,000) within their reserves. The sale of hides from naturally deceased elephants goes into funding the reserves, the security and veterinarians. In other words, the protection and growth of elephants. We do not use elephant skin from hunted elephants.

 

 

It’s my fault that I didn’t consider people’s feeling and ignorance on this subject. I’ve known all about these bags for more than a year, the history of the skin, the certification, the legality of different types of sources. My video mentions that the skin is certified, and when you buy a bag with exotic skin, you get a certificate for its origin.

 

But 15 pages of heated discussion without a clue to the facts! And an “administrator” going elephant man on his profile …

 

I’m a public person with a website that displays my phone number and my e-mail. Only esteemed forum member Jono Slack was sensible enough to not part-take in this sideshow, but e-mailed me directly to question how this works, and did his own research as well, opening more questions that he asked me.

 

Anyone who feel they want to do something about this should donate to for example www.earthorganization.org or www.savetheelephants.org

 

 

/Thorsten

Naivety is often coupled with moral idealism; you’ve managed to couple it with greed and arrogance instead.

 

BTW, Jono posted on a similar discussion at GetDPI (before the moderators cut it off), and suggested that he might have been too quick to defend. Perhaps he’ll join here to further clarify.

 

I already donate to worthy causes. I hope that others here will join me in not contributing to any of your products or endeavors. In the meantime, I hope that Billingham takes a stand against the association made by you.

 

Jeff

[pgk]

Am I alone in wondering what a 'naturally deceased elephant' is? Presumably one which is dead. From what? Old age? Disease? Gunshots? Call me cynical, but its an odd way to describe an elephant's way of dying - shouldn't the phrase be: "elephants which have died from natural causes' if the reason is in fact not hastened? I remain highly (as in totally) skeptical.

[Michael Geschlecht]

I have just been out to walk my dog for an hour. She must have chased at least 20 rabbits. And not a single elephant.

 

To compare elephants to rabbits and chickens is just risible.

 

Hello Andy,

 

there is another thing to think about also:

 

I have made it a point not to eat & not to disturb the lives of Apex Predators & Apex Herbivors.

 

The reason for this is: Living creatures further down the Chain Of Dominance generally have the ability to reproduce themselves at a greater rate than higher up Members do & therefore, in some instances, they have the ability to maintain their existence better in spite of their utilization by people.

 

Most Apex Predators & most Apex Herbivors evolved in a Series of Ecosystems where, for various reasons, they ended up not reproducing themselves at a very great rate, since, among other reasons,: they had no Natural Predators.

 

Things are different now. People, in their Modern Cultural Sense, are Apex, Apex Predators, since they prey on all types of Creatures that had formerly, to a great extent, been pretty much left to themselves.

 

As a factor of their slow rate of reproduction, whether they are Sharks, Elephants or Condors: Apex Predators & Apex Herbivors are disappearing at a non-recoverable rate.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited March 28, 2018 by Michael Geschlecht

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[IkarusJohn]

In this part of the world, I’d happily wear fur from possums, rabbits, any mustelid ... why? They’re pests the Government has undertaken to eradicate within the next 30 years. Completely eradicate.

 

The thing is, Thorsten has been ruffled; criticised; called out; and had his morals questioned. That has lead to an understandable, but frankly unhelpful reaction - lashing out with terms like “politically correct”, “ignorant” and we don’t understand “the facts”. It seems to me that ThorstenvO has been looking at every opportunity to find income out of his photographic hobby, and this latest venture is something he’s invested a lot in. The fact that he is apparently discounting a lot of stuff also suggests that he might need this latest venture to succeed. TvO’s “Van” bags probably need success, and criticising these unbelievably expensive, rather horrible bags touches a nerve.

 

The critical question is, will TvO be persuaded this whole thing is a bad idea? His response suggests he’ll keep digging.

 

Will potential buyers be persuaded by this discussion not to buy one of the bags? I doubt that too. I’d be surprised if a member here bought one, and anyone rich enough to buy such a bag would probably like to shoot the elephant giving up its hide for his vanity product.

 

I do find Thorsten’s attitude disappointing.