Best Film M

[01af]

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Have the affected frames been shot in quick succession along with the previous and following frames? Or has there been a longer pause before or after the affected frames?

[a.noctilux]

As the light comes from the top, it's in fact from the base plate or junction base/body (that's my assumption) that is not tight or a bit bent.

 

Maybe you can swap base plate to see if it's tight, or use a Leicavit or Motor, if you have one.

Edited June 13, 2017 by a.noctilux

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[wattsy]

Have the affected frames been shot in quick succession along with the previous and following frames? Or has there been a longer pause before or after the affected frames?

 

It's more random than that though some of the affected frames are fairly close together on the roll. 

 

As the light comes from the top, it's in fact from the base plate or junction base/body (that's my assumption) that is not tight or a bit bent.

 

Maybe you can swap base plate to see if it's tight, or use a Leicavit or Motor, if you have one.

 

 

It's not the baseplate.

 

I think it might be curtain related. Where the curtains join doesn't look parallel to me and seems to be coming apart towards the bottom of the camera (which corresponds to the position of the light artefact at the top of the photograph). Presumably the film moves with the curtains as the camera is wound on (if my theory is correct, the light must be coming through obliquely because the join doesn't sit in front of the middle of the frame). If it is the problem, it is obviously something easily fixed but nonetheless a little concerning. This is my most heavily used camera but I don't think I have used it for more than 75 rolls of film since new.

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Edited June 13, 2017 by wattsy

[01af]

I think it might be curtain related. Where the curtains join doesn't look parallel to me and seems to be coming apart towards the bottom of the camera (which corresponds to the position of the light artefact at the top of the photograph). Presumably the film moves with the curtains as the camera is wound on ...

 

Sounds plausible to me. To test this theory, sacrifice a roll and wind some frames with the lens cap (or body cap) in place, and some more frames with the aperture wide open in bright lighting (or no lens at all). If your theory is correct then the frames wound while protected from light should all be fine, and those wound while exposed to light should all be damaged.

 

Or, better yet, try looking at the curtains, wound half-way (as depicted above), against a bright source of light with the back flap open and check if you can see any light leaking through between the curtains.

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by 01af

[michaelwj]

The join is between frames when you wind on (film is wound on at the same rate as the curtains move), so it wouldn't be when winding on. It must be during exposure that the angled curtains are causing the extra exposure.

[wattsy]

Or, better yet, try looking at the curtains, wound half-way (as depicted above), against a bright source of light with the back flap open and check if you can see any light leaking through between the curtains.

 

Yes, I did that a little earlier and I couldn't see any light leaking through the curtains as I wound on the camera. 

 

The join is between frames when you wind on (film is wound on at the same rate as the curtains move), so it wouldn't be when winding on. It must be during exposure that the angled curtains are causing the extra exposure.

 

 

Yes, I thought that the light might be getting through obliquely as the film is wound on but, as pointed out above, I couldn't see anything getting through during the film wind and, thinking about this more, the light leak is unlikely to be that oblique (as you state the join is not near the middle of the photographic frame). However, all things considered, it seems too much of a coincidence that the join looks skew-whiff in a way that corresponds to the shape and position of the light leak, for it not to be the primary candidate for the leak. I think you are right that the angled join is causing the light leak during exposure but only under particular circumstances that I cannot quite work out.

 

The phenomenon is intermittent with no obvious pattern. On one roll (the fourth to last roll I have had developed) it occurs four times, including three times in four frames. The next two rolls each have only one frame affected (one of which might not even be the same thing but a little bit of veiling flare). The most recent developed roll is fine. My first M-A which had a similar problem from new was also very intermittent – I could go three or four rolls of film without seeing the problem and then two or three frames on a single roll would display it. 

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Edited June 13, 2017 by wattsy

[plaidshirts]

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So M-A is newest and the best money can buy new.

The elements choosen for M-A by Leica are the best modern solutions of decades of manual/mechanic M.

 

In light of the M-A issue (pun intended), it certainly is the newest, but I'm not sure it's the best money can buy.

I have an M3, M4, M5 and an M6 and none have developed a light leak as discussed here.

They've all been used rigorously by past owners and me - none of them would be considered a shelf queen.

There seems to be merit to the opinion that the early handmade Leicas, M2 ~ M5, are the best.

I like my M6, but there is a difference, at least to me, in how it feels in my hand compared to the earlier ones.

[wattsy]

In light of the M-A issue (pun intended), it certainly is the newest, but I'm not sure it's the best money can buy.

I have an M3, M4, M5 and an M6 and none have developed a light leak as discussed here.

They've all been used rigorously by past owners and me - none of them would be considered a shelf queen.

There seems to be merit to the opinion that the early handmade Leicas, M2 ~ M5, are the best.

I like my M6, but there is a difference, at least to me, in how it feels in my hand compared to the earlier ones.

There are plenty of M3/4/5/6 bodies that have developed light leaks so I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions. That said, if my current problematic M-A does turn out to have the same problem as my first (and it does look that way) I will be asking Leica some searching questions about the future reliability of the two cameras I own. I doubt there is anything intrinsically different between the M-A and the far more tried and tested MP but it is possible that recent manufacturing of Leica film cameras (including the MP) has not been up to the standard of a few years ago? Edited June 13, 2017 by wattsy

[semi-ambivalent]

Yes, I did that a little earlier and I couldn't see any light leaking through the curtains as I wound on the camera. 

 

 

 

Yes, I thought that the light might be getting through obliquely as the film is wound on but, as pointed out above, I couldn't see anything getting through during the film wind and, thinking about this more, the light leak is unlikely to be that oblique (as you state the join is not near the middle of the photographic frame). However, all things considered, it seems too much of a coincidence that the join looks skew-whiff in a way that corresponds to the shape and position of the light leak, for it not to be the primary candidate for the leak. I think you are right that the angled join is causing the light leak during exposure but only under particular circumstances that I cannot quite work out.

 

The phenomenon is intermittent with no obvious pattern. On one roll (the fourth to last roll I have had developed) it occurs four times, including three times in four frames. The next two rolls each have only one frame affected (one of which might not even be the same thing but a little bit of veiling flare). The most recent developed roll is fine. My first M-A which had a similar problem from new was also very intermittent – I could go three or four rolls of film without seeing the problem and then two or three frames on a single roll would display it. 

Might there be metal flash or a burr on the metal edge of the left hand (in the image) curtain, down in the channel, preventing it from seating evenly/tightly against the receiving edge of the other curtain? This might also drag enough at times during exposure to leak. Just a thought-don't know how you'd check for that. I think it was Mr. Ye who mentioned to me once that curtains must be glued on just....right. One assumes that 'just right' would be consistently achievable by the staff at Wetzlar.

 

Good luck in this,

s-a

[a.noctilux]

Hope that Leica sort it out.

 

As side note I think that is a matter of mechanical adjusting in factory and not bad choice of materials.

[EddieJ]

It's more random than that though some of the affected frames are fairly close together on the roll. 

 

 

 

It's not the baseplate.

 

I think it might be curtain related. Where the curtains join doesn't look parallel to me and seems to be coming apart towards the bottom of the camera (which corresponds to the position of the light artefact at the top of the photograph). Presumably the film moves with the curtains as the camera is wound on (if my theory is correct, the light must be coming through obliquely because the join doesn't sit in front of the middle of the frame). If it is the problem, it is obviously something easily fixed but nonetheless a little concerning. This is my most heavily used camera but I don't think I have used it for more than 75 rolls of film since new.

 

It very much looks like *fogging from a leaking shutter curtain. Your image of the shutter curtain does appear to lend some weight to this.

 

Have a close look at the film rebate at the affected negatives - any fogging?

 

Finally, what lens *a lens, multiple lenses are you using.

Did you change lens between frames?

 

Might show the images to the techs here and who knows - they may have an idea?

Edited June 13, 2017 by EddieJ

[pop]

I agree that the shutter looks suspicious. However, the bright area seems to exhibit a structure, and it seems to be the same structure in all four instances, and there is no apparent connection between the picture content and the structure. I can not think of any damage to the shutter which would produce this kind of "clouding":

 

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I extracted the damaged part from each image; I then selected the red channel from the coloured ones, and increased the contrast to make the structure within the brighter area visible.

[EddieJ]

I agree that the shutter looks suspicious. However, the bright area seems to exhibit a structure, and it seems to be the same structure in all four instances, and there is no apparent connection between the picture content and the structure. I can not think of any damage to the shutter which would produce this kind of "clouding":

 

flare-1-Rot.jpgflare-2.jpgflare-3.jpgflare-4-Rot.jpg

 

I extracted the damaged part from each image; I then selected the red channel from the coloured ones, and increased the contrast to make the structure within the brighter area visible.

 

I agree, however the 'straight edges' of the fogging/leak appears to align with the shutter curtain *join as posted by Wattsy.

Perhaps after exposure and not winding the film on?

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[semi-ambivalent]

I agree that the shutter looks suspicious. However, the bright area seems to exhibit a structure, and it seems to be the same structure in all four instances, and there is no apparent connection between the picture content and the structure. I can not think of any damage to the shutter which would produce this kind of "clouding":

 

flare-1-Rot.jpgflare-2.jpgflare-3.jpgflare-4-Rot.jpg

 

I extracted the damaged part from each image; I then selected the red channel from the coloured ones, and increased the contrast to make the structure within the brighter area visible.

Consistency of pattern because of consistency of the pattern of an interior reflection? Shiny metal in the shutter box? Shiny metal on rear of some lens used? Perhaps try a long exposure of a featureless surface to see the presence of that structure there.

 

Oh, if only Miss Marple were real,

s-a

[01af]

I checked the shutter curtains on my Leica M-A. The two curtains' edges at the join are perfectly parallel and slightly overlapping, not skewed as shown in the picture posted by Ian wattsy above.

 

Anyway—as Michael michaelwj already has pointed out—if there's light leaking through that skewed join while winding the film forward then leak should appear at or near the gap between frames and not at the frames' centers. If it happened while re-winding (with the shutter cocked half-way) then it would appear at various random positions.

 

So it's a mystery. I'm looking forward to the solution to this riddle.

[harmen]

Maybe the strip of material that is folded around the end on the left is somewhat angled, but the actual joint seems straight.

 

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[wattsy]

So it's a mystery. I'm looking forward to the solution to this riddle.

Oh, if only Miss Marple were real,

 

 

I don't think the position of the curtain join in relation to the film frame (i.e. that it sits roughly between frames as the film is wound) necessarily rules out a gap here as being the cause because the light leak may be reflecting off something else or shining obliquely. Whatever the reason, it clearly is something that depends upon certain circumstances – a particular angle of light or, more likely IMO, something like a periodic slight buckling of one of the curtains to let the light through (remember it only affects a maximum of 5-6 frames per roll of film and doesn't appear on all recent rolls). The shutter curtain join might in fact be a complete red herring.The strangest aspect to the mystery is that this is the second M-A camera I have owned where this problem has arisen. Maybe there is something weird about me?

 

Edit. Just for further clarification, the leak artefact is on the negs so it isn't a scanner thing. I feel I can also rule out film development as a cause. It is true that all the affected rolls this month were developed by the same lab but when I had the problem with my first M-A, I encountered the problem on film developed by more than one lab and on film of more than one process type (both C41 and B&W). Also, the leak doesn't extend beyond the film gate area so I can feel confident it is happening in the camera.

Edited June 14, 2017 by wattsy

[gberger]

A slight bit of Heresy.

 

I have an MP .85.

If I want to use a light meter for aperture and shutter speed settings (a la the MA), I just remove the batteries and pretend it's an  M-A. 

No light leakage issue. 

No need for both an MP and an M-A

 

Just my ancient three cents ( Inflation, you know!)

[semi-ambivalent]

I don't think the position of the curtain join in relation to the film frame (i.e. that it sits roughly between frames as the film is wound) necessarily rules out a gap here as being the cause because the light leak may be reflecting off something else or shining obliquely. Whatever the reason, it clearly is something that depends upon certain circumstances – a particular angle of light or, more likely IMO, something like a periodic slight buckling of one of the curtains to let the light through (remember it only affects a maximum of 5-6 frames per roll of film and doesn't appear on all recent rolls). The shutter curtain join might in fact be a complete red herring.The strangest aspect to the mystery is that this is the second M-A camera I have owned where this problem has arisen. Maybe there is something weird about me?

 

Edit. Just for further clarification, the leak artefact is on the negs so it isn't a scanner thing. I feel I can also rule out film development as a cause. It is true that all the affected rolls this month were developed by the same lab but when I had the problem with my first M-A, I encountered the problem on film developed by more than one lab and on film of more than one process type (both C41 and B&W). Also, the leak doesn't extend beyond the film gate area so I can feel confident it is happening in the camera.

Below is a shot of my M3 with the shutter set to Bulb, fired and held open with a locking cable release. The light, diagonal mark is what appears to be a scuffing of the blackening on the inside of the rearmost flange of the top shutter channel. This scuffing faces the lens and is exposed to the emulsion only when the shutter (all or a slit) is passing by. Got anything like that? This is maddening because the structures pop showed are not illusory, and they are in the same place whenever they appear. Has to be either a light leak or a reflection off some unchanging part of the camera since the structures change only in intensity and not shape or position.

 

s-a

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[a.noctilux]

A slight bit of Heresy.

 

I have an MP .85.

If I want to use a light meter for aperture and shutter speed settings (a la the MA), I just remove the batteries and pretend it's an  M-A. 

No light leakage issue. 

No need for both an MP and an M-A

 

Just my ancient three cents ( Inflation, you know!)

 

My four cents...

 

I had at one time MP nice x 0.85 also.

What bother me is the not complete lines in 35 field and even 50 field not complete.

 

Happy to have those complete lines on M-A smart viewfinder and don't worry where to put the removed batteries from MP .