The next speculation

[semi-ambivalent]

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Most of the arguments boil down to 'How much of the M3 can you abandon before it stops being an M?' and everybody has their own sub-set of what that is. Leica has investors to mollify and a payroll to make with regularity; selling 28mm Summiluxes isn't going to do it. About the legacy and uniqueness of their products they're pretty smart people and one only needs to look at Canon/Nikon or Dell/HP to see that competing in the mass market is its own punishment.

 

s-a

[bocaburger]

You're right about the limited validity of the comparison, but about the 5D and M8 I have to disagree. The 5D did have a more user-friendly high-ISO, lost out on detail and colour fidelity, but I can see how one would prefer the files, However at base ISO it could not keep up with the M8. (and yes, I compared extensively in 2007) With the same caveat you mention here - Summicron against 1.8/50.

You're comparing the full-frame performance of a plastic-bodied sub-$100 lens to a $2000 lens with a significant part of the outer field cropped away.   As to detail, aside from the foregoing variables introduced by the lenses and crop factor, you're also comparing a CMOS with an AA filter to a CCD without an AA filter.  As to color fidelity, leave the IR-cut filter off the lens and shoot both cameras in jpeg and the 5D1 delivers fidelity and consistency the M8 (or M9) doesn't.  I felt compelled to upgrade from the M8 to M9 to M240, whereas I still have no desire to upgrade from the 5D1 as long as it still works. 

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[bocaburger]

I used to shoot my original 5D with a 35mm 1.4L series lens. I switched to the M8 with a 35mm summilux aspherical. The lux smokes the 35 Canon wide open, and the autofocus is not always as precise as we assume it to be.

Again, the M8 crops away a large part of the outer field where more aberrations reside.  Even if it didn't, your asserted the M8's superiority over the 5D1 but your data only supports an assertion of the superiority of the Leica lens over the Canon lens.  Which may well be true, and one would hope so given there's about a tenfold price differential. 

[david strachan]

Not true. I use my EVF on the M240 and then with MF grip and SCA adapter I can use flash if desired. I often use a Pocket Wizard on the SCA hot shoe to signal to my studio stobes (or what ever else someone wants to use as a flash). 

 

Not for M8 or M9, or any of their iterations.  Only works for M240 and if you buy/use a grip.

A flash socket would have been nice on all the digital M cameras. Sadly...no.

cheers  Dave S

[rsolomon]

how about a basic, more accuracy in the meter -- i'm finding the m240 off about a full stop.

[BerndReini]

Again, the M8 crops away a large part of the outer field where more aberrations reside.  Even if it didn't, your asserted the M8's superiority over the 5D1 but your data only supports an assertion of the superiority of the Leica lens over the Canon lens.  Which may well be true, and one would hope so given there's about a tenfold price differential. 

Yes, I did. And that's why I clarified what equipment I was using. The point I was trying with my post was not that the M8 was a superior camera to the 5D1, but that rangefinder focusing is extremely precise and the precision we demand from it are often above the standard we used to expect from autofocus systems.

 

But since you are talking about the 5D, it was actually the reason I did buy the M8. I used to shoot slide film with a Contax N1. I switched to the 5D to go digital. After a year, I bought my first film Leica, an MP with a 35lux aspherical. I went on a personal trip to Hawaii, and I took both cameras, the MP in a tiny Domke bag, and the 5D with three primes in a large backpack. When I returned, and the M8 was announced, I realized that I would never be traveling with that stupid backpack rig again. I'm not knocking DSLRs. They are great cameras, but I just don't need them for what I do, and I cannot stand the size and bulk of them. 

 

So know you know in what regard I assert the superiority of the M8 over the 5D, not as a blanket statement, but as a personal choice. The mechanical rangefinder gets too much of a bad reputation these days even though it still works perfectly in most situations.

[jaapv]

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You're comparing the full-frame performance of a plastic-bodied sub-$100 lens to a $2000 lens with a significant part of the outer field cropped away.   As to detail, aside from the foregoing variables introduced by the lenses and crop factor, you're also comparing a CMOS with an AA filter to a CCD without an AA filter.  As to color fidelity, leave the IR-cut filter off the lens and shoot both cameras in jpeg and the 5D1 delivers fidelity and consistency the M8 (or M9) doesn't.  I felt compelled to upgrade from the M8 to M9 to M240, whereas I still have no desire to upgrade from the 5D1 as long as it still works.

Colour fidelity fair comparison? I suggest you have the IR filter removed from the 5D sensor as well in that case...

I may add that I was shooting raw. As you shoot JPG exclusively I can well understand your preference for the 5D. The M8 JPGs are quite dodgy, except when used for B&W.

[david strachan]

"The M8 JPGs are quite dodgy, except when used for B&W."

 

Hmm.  They are not so bad Jaap.

 

Good camera  and lens technique is very important...as you'd be first to say.

Get great colour and JPG processing in camera; auto WB is good....very lightly processed in LR 5.7...Bingo!  Good JPG for printing (A3+) and web reduction.

I very rarely process the DNG file.

My M8's are set to higher contrast in B&W; and when colour, Med High on colour saturation and sometimes I increase contrast.  A very nice JPG v rarely overblown, and any shadow exposure I want.

All the best Dave S

[stevieg]

Hmmm, reading all of this again.

 

Keep the iterations of the M going. My next M "upgrade" ideally would have "zoomable/moveable" live view and shutter speeds in the viewfinder in manual mode with the triangles showing under/over exposure. Frame selector on the front for quick preview when landscape shooting.

That would be enough for me to continue to support my favourite optical and camera company!

(I'm beginning to wonder if GPS functionality is a triumph of "can-do" technology over necessity.)

 

Let an autofocus FF camera be developed if Leica feel that there is a future in it, but don't destroy the essence of the "messsucher"!

[algrove]

At this point I am happy with the M-P and M246 which their 24MP sensors and as such I want no GAS buildup the next time something comes out. Chasing Leica MPixels is a black hole experience. Anyway when I want high MP I revert to my 50MP MF.

Edited May 22, 2015 by algrove

[rosuna]

This is only a rumor, but...

 

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/fuji-is-going-mediium-format-in-1-2-years-to-avoid-the-full-frame-battle?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

Fuji and Pentax avoid direct competition with Sony, Canon and Nikon.

[norm_snyder]

Maybe I'll just do what was my habit with Photoshop, before they went to subscription: Skip every other upgrade...Oh...wait, that means I'm due!

 

On the other hand, while higher resolution sensors are probably a given, we need to consider that as the resolution [Mp] increases, it demands more of the lenses, and that the camera [if one is to judge with current 36 Mp offerings] produces best results when locked down to a sturdy tripod.  That's not how these cameras are intended to be used.  

[IkarusJohn]

This is only a rumor, but...

 

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/fuji-is-going-mediium-format-in-1-2-years-to-avoid-the-full-frame-battle?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

Fuji and Pentax avoid direct competition with Sony, Canon and Nikon.

 

Right, so Sony don't make APS-C cameras, and Fuji will be the only digital medium format camera maker?  

Edited May 25, 2015 by IkarusJohn

[bocaburger]

Colour fidelity fair comparison? I suggest you have the IR filter removed from the 5D sensor as well in that case...

 

But the M8 has an IR filter.  It just doesn't work adequately.

[bocaburger]

"The M8 JPGs are quite dodgy, except when used for B&W."

 

Hmm.  They are not so bad Jaap.

 

Good camera  and lens technique is very important...as you'd be first to say.

Get great colour and JPG processing in camera; auto WB is good....very lightly processed in LR 5.7...Bingo!  Good JPG for printing (A3+) and web reduction.

I very rarely process the DNG file.

My M8's are set to higher contrast in B&W; and when colour, Med High on colour saturation and sometimes I increase contrast.  A very nice JPG v rarely overblown, and any shadow exposure I want.

All the best Dave S

Sometimes they were good, sometimes not.  It was inconsistency that forced me to shoot DNG with it. 

[rosuna]

Right, so Sony don't make APS-C cameras, and Fuji will be the only digital medium format camera maker?  

 

Sony does APS-C cameras, but not fully developed APS-C systems... as Fuji does. The X system is a complete photographic system, with several bodies of different characteristics and prices and a complete set of lenses (primes, zooms, fast, small, macro, tele, wides... etc.). The same goes for Pentax's APS-C reflex system.

 

Pentax also has a medium format system, mature and very complete, and Fuji may be thinking on the first MF mirrorless system.

 

Sony could do the same... but are they interested in relatively small niches? 

Edited May 25, 2015 by rosuna

[IkarusJohn]

I think the NEX was a fully developed system, wasn't it?

[-Lss-]

I still shoot with a 5D (classic, original, 12mp).  Despite being 11 yrs old the image quality holds up extremely well.  Especially compared to an M8 (I had one). 

 

I still shoot with an M8, and the image quality is close enough to the Sony RX1R that I also use for me not to worry about it.

[rosuna]

I think the NEX was a fully developed system, wasn't it?

 

No, It wasn't, in my opinion. Few lenses, and Sony stopped further development time ago. It is a toy system.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[rosuna]

Anyway, a new product to be announced soon... 

 

(Rumor):

 

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/suprise-product-to-be-announced-by-leica-in-two-weeks-from-now?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter