Leica in 2024 and 2025: What’s next from Wetzlar

[Steadimann]

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1 hour ago, ivohula said:

I have said many times on this site that if I am to buy a new M camera, I want the best image quality from it when I am using my M lenses. To me, this largely entails great dynamic range, cutting edge EVF (9M pixels and at least a 120hertz refresh), and IBIS. All in a fairly similar M camera size as we have now. 

In the near future, if I want a "traditional" M, then I can buy a used M11, or M10, or whatever floats my needs, all at a substantial savings. 

When I buy new, I expect great functionality from my $9000+ camera. I expect innovation and reliability. The new Fuji X100VI sensor is an example:

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I love my lenses and stay in the M ecosystem to use those lenses. If I have to sacrifice the functionality of the camera to use those lenses, I will to a point, but there is a limit. Technology marches on and Fuji, Sony Canon and Nikon are giving us great cameras with huge lenses. I like my small lenses for my M but there needs to be more stable tech in the M12 and less excuses.

i don't think it can be done. Having lens mount changes a lot of things, Fuji developed a lens with the idea that it would be a fixed lens, then you can have the lens closer to sensor. Even if that can be done, I don't agree with crazy EVF, IBIS etc. M11 is a perfect camera as it is (except constant glitches, which i don't experiences honestly with my M11P) for real life.

As i come from cinema world, the only thing i would appreciate is someone develop technology to provide stills camera with 16-17 stops of DR like current cinema cameras AND work on colour science, so the images with applied look would simply be superb - no casts, perfect skintones etc. Imho that is the only way all camera manufacturers need to go, Leica - too. Though Leica has a lot, they could do better.

[fleeja]

3 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Don't 'global shutters' impact the dynamic range of the sensor? Leica will not (hopefully) want to impact ultimate image quality for whatever it is a global shutter would bring (just more electronic b.s. crammed into the M to go wrong imo).

Global shutters currently do but stacked sensors dont. Theres really no need for a global shutter on an M. The advantages are mostly for video and or flash sync which arent really use cases for the M anyways. The 1/250th read out speed of current stacked sensors work perfectly fine for high speed sports without distortion and would also be suitable for an M (or all leica cameras given the price)

Edited February 23 by fleeja

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[fleeja]

2 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

For years we've been disabusing folks of this notion as the Q design depends on a leaf shutter in the lens assembly. So to date, no. That said, someday perhaps, assuming we lose mechanical shutters altogether. 

The distance from the mount to sensor plane is fixed. Removing the shutter or keeping it has no effect on being able to fit a thicker sensor assembly. The problem is the amount of space from the sensor plane to the rear, not the front.  The obvious solution of a deeper body is something due to the M240 backlash that has been said to be off the table ever since and purportedly why the 11 has no IBIS.  

Fair point, but there are an awful lot of very small bodies with a lot of tech inside that keep pushing things forward, look at the example photo in the post above. Just saying its not possible isnt really pushing engineering principles forward, which is kind of what Leica is always saying they do. A7CR series has full frame, EVF, IBIS in a body that makes an M look big, Hasselblad X2D has a medium format sensor, IBIS, and EVF in a body thats about the same thickness as an M. I know both have new mirrorless lens mounts with less registration depth but still.... 

[fleeja]

43 minutes ago, Steadimann said:

i don't think it can be done. Having lens mount changes a lot of things, Fuji developed a lens with the idea that it would be a fixed lens, then you can have the lens closer to sensor. Even if that can be done, I don't agree with crazy EVF, IBIS etc. M11 is a perfect camera as it is (except constant glitches, which i don't experiences honestly with my M11P) for real life.

As i come from cinema world, the only thing i would appreciate is someone develop technology to provide stills camera with 16-17 stops of DR like current cinema cameras AND work on colour science, so the images with applied look would simply be superb - no casts, perfect skintones etc. Imho that is the only way all camera manufacturers need to go, Leica - too. Though Leica has a lot, they could do better.

I dont think they need to go crazy on the tech either but a stacked sensor provides a completely silent shutter than will never wear out, allows you to shoot wide open on a bright sunny day without workarounds, have no warping effects on moving subjects, and no issues under artificial lights, not sure why anyone wouldnt want those features.  

IBIS is also nice. With 60mp youre generally having to use 4xFL shutter speeds for very sharp photos at pixel level. You can cut that down quite a bit with IBIS, most companies are doing 5 stops with a lot 7-8 now. Yes, it doesn't matter when people/subjects are moving but a lot of M shooters are travelling with cameras and/or shooting static scenes. It sure is nice when you can easily handhold a 50mm lens at 1/15 pin sharp at pixel level, every single time. It allows you to lower your ISO quite a bit and gain back the dynamic range that you mentioned is important to you, as youre only getting max dynamic range at base ISO. Also not sure why anyone would think this is detracting from the camera, its completely transparent to the user

Those two features - not much to gain after that. People can argue about EVF or no EVF, thats preference 

Edited February 23 by fleeja

[Tailwagger]

25 minutes ago, fleeja said:

Fair point, but there are an awful lot of very small bodies with a lot of tech inside that keep pushing things forward, look at the example photo in the post above. Just saying its not possible isnt really pushing engineering principles forward, which is kind of what Leica is always saying they do. A7CR series has full frame, EVF, IBIS in a body that makes an M look big, Hasselblad X2D has a medium format sensor, IBIS, and EVF in a body thats about the same thickness as an M. I know both have new mirrorless lens mounts with less registration depth but still.... 

I never said that such things aren't achievable.  In the past Leica has... but sure, they likely will find a palatable solution someday in the future.  My point solely was that losing the shutter can't play much, if any, role given that the lens registration distance is unalterable.

Edited February 23 by Tailwagger

[thrid]

2 hours ago, ivohula said:

I have said many times on this site that if I am to buy a new M camera, I want the best image quality from it when I am using my M lenses. To me, this largely entails great dynamic range, cutting edge EVF (9M pixels and at least a 120hertz refresh), and IBIS. All in a fairly similar M camera size as we have now. 

In the near future, if I want a "traditional" M, then I can buy a used M11, or M10, or whatever floats my needs, all at a substantial savings. 

When I buy new, I expect great functionality from my $9000+ camera. I expect innovation and reliability. The new Fuji X100VI sensor is an example

I love my lenses and stay in the M ecosystem to use those lenses. If I have to sacrifice the functionality of the camera to use those lenses, I will to a point, but there is a limit. Technology marches on and Fuji, Sony Canon and Nikon are giving us great cameras with huge lenses. I like my small lenses for my M but there needs to be more stable tech in the M12 and less excuses.

I really don't see how the sensor in the M11 is behind or not among the best on the market. It's 60MP and has almost 15 stops of range. For what it's worth DXO mark rates it as the highest performing full frame sensor out there.

I do agree that Leica has to get their act together on the firmware bugs. I have not experienced any of these issues myself, but it is the most expensive full frame camera on the market and it should not freeze. That's just not acceptable. I felt the same way about my 240 and the green shadows, which was ridiculous and as far as I know never was corrected.

But I really don't know if all of the tech like IBIS, EVF etc could or should even be integrated into the M. Also, at some point it would no longer be an M.

The M is a unique camera in the world of photography and in some ways the last of its kind. Why not just let it be what it is instead of trying to change it into something it isn't? There are plenty of other options out there that offer all of these features.

Sony, Canon, Nikon all make very, very different cameras than the M, so I really don't see how they compare. Fuji is somewhere in-between, but I own a X100 and it's not the same shooting experience as the M series. If anything I found the countless buttons and focus by wire so annoying that I retired it and stuck with my M10 (now M11) and Nikon DSLR.

What you are describing is an entirely different camera, basically an SL or a Q that takes M lenses.

And that would be fine.

I just don't understand why so many people want to turn the M series into something it isn't, when what they are asking for pretty much already exists in another form and we would lose the one camera that is not like every other one on the market. If it's about the lenses you can even stick your M lenses on some of these EVF wonders from other manufacturers.

Anyhow.

Edited February 23 by thrid

[kiwidad]

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On 2/23/2024 at 9:29 AM, charlesphoto99 said:

Don't 'global shutters' impact the dynamic range of the sensor? Leica will not (hopefully) want to impact ultimate image quality for whatever it is a global shutter would bring (just more electronic b.s. crammed into the M to go wrong imo).

From reviews of the new Sony with the global shutter, it appears image quality does suffer. 

I dont typically shoot at high frame rates so I fail to see any benefit to a global shutter ... wonder how much sensor burn we will see with such a thing?

[kiwidad]

On 2/23/2024 at 1:33 PM, thrid said:

I really don't see how the sensor in the M11 is behind or not among the best on the market. It's 60MP and has almost 15 stops of range. For what it's worth DXO mark rates it as the highest performing full frame sensor out there.

I do agree that Leica has to get their act together on the firmware bugs. I have not experienced any of these issues myself, but it is the most expensive full frame camera on the market and it should not freeze. That's just not acceptable. I felt the same way about my 240 and the green shadows, which was ridiculous and as far as I know never was corrected.

But I really don't know if all of the tech like IBIS, EVF etc could or should even be integrated into the M. Also, at some point it would no longer be an M.

The M is a unique camera in the world of photography and in some ways the last of its kind. Why not just let it be what it is instead of trying to change it into something it isn't? There are plenty of other options out there that offer all of these features.

 

I just don't understand why so many people want to turn the M series into something it isn't, when what they are asking for pretty much already exists in another form and we would lose the one camera that is not like every other one on the market. If it's about the lenses you can even stick your M lenses on some of these EVF wonders from other manufacturers.

Anyhow.

yes, on all points

I dont get it either. I loved the shooting experience on my M3 and love that i can get it in digital

Every other digital camera I owned had "issues" so no-one is perfect it seems! 

[evikne]

On 2/23/2024 at 8:33 PM, thrid said:

But I really don't know if all of the tech like IBIS, EVF etc could or should even be integrated into the M. Also, at some point it would no longer be an M.

The M is a unique camera in the world of photography and in some ways the last of its kind. Why not just let it be what it is instead of trying to change it into something it isn't? There are plenty of other options out there that offer all of these features.

It seems inevitable that Leica will have to split the M series in two: An M Classic and an EVF-M. The M Classic could benefit from taking a couple of steps back and relax. Then they could put all sorts of high-tech features into the EVF-M.

[ksrhee]

10 minutes ago, evikne said:

It seems inevitable that Leica will have to split the M series in two: An M Classic and an EVF-M. The M Classic could benefit from taking a couple of steps back and relax. Then they could put all sorts of high-tech features into the EVF-M.

I wouldn't count on that. The M market is small and splitting that market makes no economic sense. Those folks who want EVF in a traditional SLR system have the SL system, and those M users who want the EVF can add the optional EVF. Only time will tell whether Leica will come up with something similar to the interchangeable Q, but even that might be a wishful thinking.  

[rxj]

I'd say the following is coming in the future (next years) (as someone with no insider information) just guess work so take with some humour and a grain of salt.

We won't probably see any innovation until the M12.

M11-D

M11 Reporter

M11 Ghost Hodinkee Edition

(Some kind of anniversary film camera like an MP with M3 homeage)

M12 (and a variant with EVF or hybrid whatever it'll be called)

[thrid]

On 2/23/2024 at 11:08 AM, fleeja said:

Global shutters currently do but stacked sensors dont. Theres really no need for a global shutter on an M. The advantages are mostly for video and or flash sync which arent really use cases for the M anyways. The 1/250th read out speed of current stacked sensors work perfectly fine for high speed sports without distortion and would also be suitable for an M (or all leica cameras given the price)

Actually a global shutter sensor would be a big deal for the M line, since Leica had to resort to the Rube Goldberg open-closed-open-closed-open shutter shuffle to get matrix metering into a camera, which doesn't have an EVF and is not an SLR design. It works, but it's a kludge and a lot of people are not thrilled with the odd shutter cycle.

So, if there is any camera on the market that would benefit from a global shutter it's the Leica M with an OVF.

But, the global shutter comes at a cost. Apparently you lose about 1 stop of sensitivity.

But technology doesn't stand still and we undoubtably will see progress in that area. One way around it may be a sensor with simultaneous dual grain read on each receptor well. Basically a simultaneous bracketed exposure, with the second gain reading concentration on the highlights, that are combined on the fly into an HDR RAW file. Works like a charm in the Arri Alexa35, which gets a real 17+ stops of DR.  This is not the same thing as a sensor with dual gain / two base iso sensitivity.
 

Edited March 31 by thrid

[algrove]

I use my Leicas as designed, but all this discussion does make me wonder why Leica in a future M at the current M11 size could not add IBIS at a minimum.  Why can Sony put it in an A7C which is smaller than an M11 and it even has AF capabilities.

[ksrhee]

6 minutes ago, algrove said:

I use my Leicas as designed, but all this discussion does make me wonder why Leica in a future M at the current M11 size could not add IBIS at a minimum.  Why can Sony put it in an A7C which is smaller than an M11 and it even has AF capabilities.

They are two different types of cameras.  The rangerfinder mechanism is not that small, and the real estate within the Leica M is premium.  They would probably have to make a bigger M in order to do this, and I for one does not want to carry a bigger M camera.

[algrove]

1 hour ago, ksrhee said:

They are two different types of cameras.  The rangerfinder mechanism is not that small, and the real estate within the Leica M is premium.  They would probably have to make a bigger M in order to do this, and I for one does not want to carry a bigger M camera.

Understand. I was not clear. I find it interesting that the Viso2 has IBIS built-in for focusing. Someone here suggested a super Viso3 with the highest quality EVF possible and still have IBIS.