Challenges for new Leica CEO

[jaapv]

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You have misunderstood my point that has been well documented in many accounts about Leica history. Leica "owned" the 35 mm market having invented it, and subsequently dominated the high end quality 35mm sector. They ignored SLR and the Japanese entered this segment and only a decade later did Leica wake up!.

Leica only "owned" the 35 mm market for a few years in the late twenties and early thirties. After that - Contax, Zeiss Ikon, Voigtlander, Robot, Braun, Kodak, Agfa and many others gobbled up a large part of their share. Leica may have been a major player, but for instance Contax was considered far more reliable than the "fragile"Leicas, reason Robert Capa took Contaxes onto Omaha beach. Lenses too, Ansel Adams used Contax because he considered the lenses better.

The legend of Leica stems from being the first to make a successful 35 mm camera (not invent it!) and being the last independent survivor in the field.

Edited June 9, 2009 by jaapv

[Guest BigSplash]

I was surprised to see the personal attacks, especially from members of the forum who I have never noticed make such attacks before. On reflection, 'though, I have to say that the comments of the OP don't read like the insights of a typical business turnaround manager. Seasoned turnaround CEOs are much more concerned about cash flow, debt servicing, market segmentation and positioning, etc. They are quite dispassionate about the product itself. More concerned about establishing priorities and deciding where to commit limited resources.

That said, this is a topic I would expect to see alive and well, and oft-repeated, on this forum.

My 2c.

 

Robert

 

Thanks for the support with respect to personal attacks and your support to keeping the topic alive.

 

FYI I do not see myself as a typical turnaround CEO....these are usually bankers that typically target financial engineering exclusively (this is important too!) .

In my case I of course look at financials but I also emphasize a close look at the strategy, business direction, technical issues through to R&D, manufacturing and as you say market segmentation plus product positioning....This is what I focus in my day job, but NOT as a Forum member.

 

As a forum member or as a concerned user I obviously do feel passionately about Leica since many, many years. I can have nothing to say about Leica financials ..P&L, cash flow or their investment plans....surely that would be ridiculous as I (we) obviously have no visibility on these matters. ...nor should we!

 

With respect to R&D my inputs are limited as I do not know what the product managers at Leica have as decisions they need to make.

For example:

> I have little to add vis a vis Leica's supplier choices for the R9 digital sensor replacement and the consequent technical plus financial implications / commitments Leica would have to make.

> ditto for the choice of Kodak or other sensor for M8 ++ and eventually M9

> I do not know what it would cost to make the lens mount/ inner chamber through to the sensor watertight in production...but I do know it would be nice to have!

> I do not understand what it would take to develop and then produce a full frame M8...although was it not the case that Stephen Lee, over a year ago "preannounced" that the technical issues had been sorted, and a full frame version was imminent. (Later denied by Herr Kaufmann).

NB I have full confidence that Leica have superb engineers and will eventually address full frame, but if a Leica M9 then becomes £6K and not £3900 many of us I am sure will make do with the existing M8.

 

My view is however that as a user I do have a view about:

> Product features, including new lenses and accessories I (we) want to see..........how they are realised is a R&D, and Leica decision.

> What I am prepared to pay for xxx feature........if this is realistic is clearly a Leica decision to figure out how to achieve. (eg S2 ..will people pay the expected prices against what an entrenched competitor, Hasselblad costs today?...how long will it take to release the full system?)

> Pre sales advice on what Leica system I need....retail staff training is a Leica responsibility, and is not good!

> Post sales support.....it appears reading the thread that everyone has the same issue. It's expensive and takes too long. (NB I now newly understand that cleaning the sensor of an M8 is a back to Leica factory job, or the user can take a risk...surely the tools and training should be done by the specialist retailer at a small "walk in" price!)

> The system offering that I want to see.

 

On this last point the "M system" has been much reduced compared to the catalogue of the 60's and 70's and I think that this is a pity. I love the Leica in many ways for travel and tourism ease of use (M8 plus a tri-elmar 28/35/50...that is 35/50/75mm on M8) is a great small unit for the world traveller! Try taking a modern quality SLR on holiday...its big, heavy, and a pain to carry!

 

However I want to also use my M8 camera as a system. I want to attach bellows etc for sculptures, and industrial type photography. I do not want to buy a completely new camera system. I today happily use my old Visoflex (30 yrs old) and Telyt telephoto lenses which are excellent, but have been discontinued.

 

I wonder why a new generation Visoflex is not made available and maybe this should use "R" type lenses going forward. This would allow for a full range of capability with an M system .....simple light kit for travel, MP type kit for close up and industrial usage, and long range telephoto.

 

The M system offers unbeatable focussing accuracy for wide angle, and is better than SLR up to about 75mm (ie 90mm on M8) and that is the range that most travel photos are taken. Portraits is 75mm country.

 

I would argue that SLR users have made their choice based on an SLR being the best camera for 75mm upwards and for extreme close up...fine, but they do not in most cases take most of their pictures in this range! We Leica M users cannot today take any pictures in this range with new factory kit...no modern Visoflex, no long focus lenses, no bellows! I see this as an opportunity for Leica and I hope that they take note.

 

In the above thread it was suggested that McDonald hamburger users do not and I guess should not give inputs to McDonalds HQ....so my inputs were not welcome. Actually McDonalds, the airlines and any successful company goes out of its way and pays a lot of money on market research to get client driven inputs. This is an ongoing process.

 

Some of the threads above with just one word "Yawn" or "already covered repeatedly " does not I feel do the writer justice as I am sure they have a lot to offer and are not doing so.

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[Guest BigSplash]

frankowen I agree with some of what you say here but to assume that the M8 without a full frame is a negative with everyone is an incorrect assumption as is calling a 28 mm lens an also ran. Personally I use my 21 which equates to a 28 on the M8 about 90% of the time. There are some good 15's out there that can be coded, mounted and used very well on the M8. The M8 is not "dangerous" in light rain or dust anymore than any other digital camera that is not a professionally sealed camera body. Leica will never compete with Canon, Nikon or any other Japanese camera company because they are tooled for mass production and that is not Leica's modus operendi and is the reason Leica users invest in their products. Improvement yes but what manufacturer of any product couldn't improve? I agree with you on service as they are not very good at it and as for sales people who are trained to know and sell the equipment they do not do a very adequate job of training people to understand the Leica philosophy of photography. Leica is a niche company and may always be so although I understand the new facilities will help speed up the manufacturing process the quality that goes into not being a mass manufacturer is a reason to purchase their products. What I'm really curious about is why everyone who posts here and claims to be an authority on something has to give a laundry list of the equipment they own as though it is an introduction of authority. Personally I see nothing in your post that hasn't already been discussed here many times nor do I see any concrete solutions by you for the perceived problems you believe Leica has, but to each their own.

 

 

I agree that the 21mm (ie 28mm on M8) is excellent. That said I would like to see a Leica 15mm lens...I guess you refer to Voigtlander 15mm (apparently very good) and Zeiss 15mm (apparently excellent!) .....but they are not part of the Leica supplied system, and that is a pity. I always worry buying none Leica bits in case they damage things and a lens that protrudes into the camera is a case in point.....The old Leica Hologon 15mm (f8) lens cannot be used on M8 for this reason...can the Voigtlander, and Zeiss?

 

I would prefer a full frame sensor and my view is so does everyone else if it is technically feasible, without picture degradation, and at a reasonable price.

[Guest BigSplash]

Ummm- the Visoflex was discontinued, what is it - forty years ago? A bit unrealistic to demand support.

And why should the customers provide a product roadmap:confused: Marketing by voting?

Where do you get the idea TTL metering was seen as a gimmick? It was introduced on the M6 as soon as electronics were compact enough to fit in a standard M body, with development help of the university of Munich. Not to mention the M5 and Cl. SLR seen as a fad? Tell that to Leicaflex SL owners. What about special editions. The first Leica Luxus - goldplated and snake leather dates from 1929. All of your premises are clearly mistaken - not very confidence-inspiring for the conclusions.

I get the strong impression that the rant is not based on solid facts, but rather what we call "borretafelpraat"- pub talk.

 

And this one is really funny - that is the essence of a rangefinder - what we are paying for..

 

Jaapv I already replied to this and saw your reply that Leica was never as big as Zeiss Contax, Voirglander etc however I did think that they made 1st 35mm camera and had the No1 spot for lenses and quality of build....you seem to suggest that was Contax. Fine, maybe you are right, maybe Leica was not so great after all.

 

I have reread your comments above and think you are wrong about after sales service for a Visoflex screen. If Mercedes, Porsche, Triumph, MG, Jaguar etc can still supply most if not ALL bits for cars that are 60 years old (I do not even mention Aston Martin, Bentey, Rolls Royce) why cant Leica? If as a forum we accept what we get I guess we'll pay £25 for a bacon & egg breakfast at a London quality hotel and get XXXX!

 

You seem to miss the point about the catastrophic evolution of the Leica.....Do you really feel that :

1) The first TTL metering on a M camera (M5) was introduced timely...I'd say it was 15 years late!

2) The first Leica SLR (with no TTL by the way) was introduced timely...I'd say it was 10 years late

3) Leica specials is a winning strategy demanded by the market....I honestly do not know! I personally would not pay extra for one, and I do not know how much it diverts attention at Solms from main stream devt and production. ......If Leica created a special stand alone division like BMW, Mercedes have done for their specials if it was profitable why not, but........!

 

If you read my comment elsewhere in this thread you will understand I am not anywhere suggesting that we users should VOTE and DEFINE the roadmap. I am saying that we should give constructive suggestions that hopefully Leica can use as a basis for their decisions. I then think we are well placed to confirm (or give positive critque) and ideally suggest positive modifications to what the factory proposes. Hopefully the factory will also be willing to listen.

 

I think sitting back and "yawn", "confused icon", "roll eyes icon" or saying we have heard all this before does not cut the mustard with me. If it is the case please show me a thread where the issues have been listed and consolidated as I have tried to do.

 

If it does not exist maybe you can create it as you clearly with Bill and Mark seem to know what the users want and have heard it all before. Thanks

[bill]

zzzzzzzzzz....

In the above thread it was suggested that McDonald hamburger users do not and I guess should not give inputs to McDonalds HQ....so my inputs were not welcome.

...zzzzzzz

 

No it wasn't. I suggested that buying a lot of cheeseburgers does not give you the right to be listened to by Ronald McDonald.

 

Roel - that's my vote.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

Edited June 9, 2009 by bill
Do you want fries with that?

[earleygallery]

I have reread your comments above and think you are wrong about after sales service for a Visoflex screen. If Mercedes, Porsche, Triumph, MG, Jaguar etc can still supply most if not ALL bits for cars that are 60 years old (I do not even mention Aston Martin, Bentey, Rolls Royce) why cant Leica? If as a forum we accept what we get I guess we'll pay £25 for a bacon & egg breakfast at a London quality hotel and get XXXX!

 

Sorry but you are not being factual.

 

Some of those companies you mention ceased to exist years ago - can give me the contact details for Triumph or MG for example? Try going to a Jaguar dealer and asking for a new steering wheel for a MK10.........

 

I think you will find the parts you refer to are made by component manufacturers who either used to supply the manufacturers or specialise in the reproduction of said parts. Just like there are some companies who make parts to fit Leicas. I doubt Leica see their future in the supply of Visoflex parts.

 

Anyway I'm out of here!

[jaapv]

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Jaapv I already replied to this and saw your reply that Leica was never as big as Zeiss Contax, Voirglander etc however I did think that they made 1st 35mm camera and had the No1 spot for lenses and quality of build....you seem to suggest that was Contax. Fine, maybe you are right, maybe Leica was not so great after all.

 

I have reread your comments above and think you are wrong about after sales service for a Visoflex screen. If Mercedes, Porsche, Triumph, MG, Jaguar etc can still supply most if not ALL bits for cars that are 60 years old (I do not even mention Aston Martin, Bentey, Rolls Royce) why cant Leica? If as a forum we accept what we get I guess we'll pay £25 for a bacon & egg breakfast at a London quality hotel and get XXXX!

 

You seem to miss the point about the catastrophic evolution of the Leica.....Do you really feel that :

1) The first TTL metering on a M camera (M5) was introduced timely...I'd say it was 15 years late!

2) The first Leica SLR (with no TTL by the way) was introduced timely...I'd say it was 10 years late

3) Leica specials is a winning strategy demanded by the market....I honestly do not know! I personally would not pay extra for one, and I do not know how much it diverts attention at Solms from main stream devt and production. ......If Leica created a special stand alone division like BMW, Mercedes have done for their specials if it was profitable why not, but........!

 

If you read my comment elsewhere in this thread you will understand I am not anywhere suggesting that we users should VOTE and DEFINE the roadmap. I am saying that we should give constructive suggestions that hopefully Leica can use as a basis for their decisions. I then think we are well placed to confirm (or give positive critque) and ideally suggest positive modifications to what the factory proposes. Hopefully the factory will also be willing to listen.

 

I think sitting back and "yawn", "confused icon", "roll eyes icon" or saying we have heard all this before does not cut the mustard with me. If it is the case please show me a thread where the issues have been listed and consolidated as I have tried to do.

 

If it does not exist maybe you can create it as you clearly with Bill and Mark seem to know what the users want and have heard it all before. Thanks

 

Interesting - yet they are the only surviving independent company in their field - maybe by not listening to well-meant, but ill-founded advice?

And I would like to know how long-defunct companies like Triumph and MG can supply spare parts. I have a Triumph and used to own an MG and I know exactly where to get spare parts from third-party suppliers - and some are impossible to obtain. And I know from firsthand experience that Jaguar cannot supply specific parts for cars older than 15 years - so whence this fake argument? Actually, no car manufacturer is required to supply spare parts for cars that are out of production for more than ten years (European directive) Surprisingly you let out the company that used to do quite well in this respect - Volvo. Although I understand that with the new style introduced by Ford this service is rapidly declining.

Anyway, cars are not really suited to taking photographs - and as I pointed out there are a number of ways to replace your Visoflex screen, none particularly complicated.

Edited June 9, 2009 by jaapv

[johnastovall]

Interesting - yet they are the only surviving independent company in their field - maybe by not listening to well-meant, but ill-founded advice?

And I would like to know how long-defunct companies like Triumph and MG can supply spare parts. I have a Triumph and had an MG and I know exactly where to get spare parts - and some are impossible to obtain. And I know from firsthand experience that Jaguar cannot supply specific parts for cars older than 15 years - so whence this fake argument?

MG is alive and well in China.

[Dan States]

No it wasn't. I suggested that buying a lot of cheeseburgers does not give you the right to be listened to by Ronald McDonald.

 

Roel - that's my vote.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Actually I spoke to Ronald McDonald and while he is not interested in direct advice, he did refer my to the Hamburgler and Mayor McCheeses office to file any complaints.

 

CEO's are all smart and honest people. We should listen to them every day because they are smart and honest people. We have many good CEO's in America.

[jaapv]

I'm sure you have - it is not really showing right now But that problem is worldwide.

[Guest BigSplash]

OK I also had a Triumph and I can get any part from Cox & Buckles or Tr Shop, in London and yes I agree that they are remanufactured bits as B.Leyland is no longer. There are companies that specialise in making bits and pieces for old kit in all areas and they make a profit.

 

I am not suggesting that Leica's future is making Visoflex screens, etc that would be ridiculous. I am saying that Leica could and should differentiate itself by aiming to support old Leica "mainstream" products (ie not pre war Luftwaffe specials etc.) albeit with maybe a long lead time for certain items like a Visoflex screen, which could be made in small handcrafted batches.

 

My feeling is that companies like Nikon and Canon will not support their product over the long term....I have some 5 year old Hi Tech products i cannot even source a replacement battery, and that should never be the flavor we expect from Leica.

 

The EU directive of 10 years is great however if Leica moved in that direction I think that would not be taking advantage that Leica as a company has naturally. They make smaller quantities than the Japanese and they have a skilled workforce that essenially handbuild Leicas, and lenses for Leicas......this is disadvantageous for large volume low cost production but great for making a small volume of spare parts as required.

 

It is also pretty good for making small volumes of special items that would add to the overall look and feel of the Leica "M" as a complete system ......I would identify for example:

> Visoflex (New Type that accepts aperture data etc and passes this to its screen)

> Bellows

> Range of Telephoto (Telyt) lenses 200, 280, 400, 560 ...maybe same units as "R" lenses which is what they did historically using different first coupling tube but same optics part....Maybe this could be upgraded to include aperure data thru to a new generation visoflex?

> The 4 legs stand for copying work

> Flash kit for professional usage and close up ( Possibly using the Wein Safe Sync, Wein Digital Smart Slave and Wein IR trigger devices, which I have been made aware of through these pages....but what a mess trying to figure out which specific units I need from the variants available from the Wein site for a M8!!!)

> Architecture Specialist lens that Leica used to make where the elements could move off axis.....no use for me but I guess for some people they want it

> 12 or 15mm lens (already discussed)

> Fisheye lens

> Filters for all historic M lenses (eg UV that include the IR 486 cut needed for M8) ...try getting a 58mm for old Noctilux (Ffordes to not stock it from B&W!)

> Napa Leather bag that can hold an M8 body only ...etc

 

I am sure there are many other items that would give claim to a full system offering.

[jaapv]

MG is alive and well in China.

I wonder about that. Afaik the brand names MG and Rover are still held by BMW.

And considering the abomination they made out of the Rover 75, I doubt that this venture will fare well outside China.

[bill]

Roel.

 

Definitely.

 

I'll stop feeding now.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[jaapv]

 

The EU directive of 10 years is great however if Leica moved in that

It is also pretty good for making small volumes of special items that would add to the overall look and feel of the Leica "M" as a complete system ......I would identify for example:

> Visoflex (New Type that accepts aperture data etc and passes this to its screen)

 

Where would the thing find that information? The aperture ring has no coupling.

> Range of Telephoto (Telyt) lenses 200, 280, 400, 560 ...maybe same units as "R" lenses.

 

Which are not in production due to lack of demand

 

 

> Flash kit for professional usage and close up ( Possibly using the Wein Safe Sync, Wein Digital Smart Slave and Wein IR trigger devices, which I have been made aware of through these pages....but what a mess trying to figure out which specific units I need from the variants available from the Wein site for a M8!!!)

Historically and now Leica relies on Metz for such things, only rebranding if so desired.

 

> Architecture Specialist lens that Leica used to make where the elements could move off axis.....no use for me but I guess for some people they want it

I guess you meant a tilt/shift lens. those are the realm of SLR cameras and will be offered for the S2 and presumably for the next R camera.

> 12 or 15mm lens (already discussed)

I guess nobody would be surprised when it will be announced in due course.

> Fisheye lens

A bit unpractical on a rangefinder. There was one in the R system and may well appear for future SLR systems

> Filters for all historic M lenses (eg UV that include the IR 486 cut needed for M8) ...try getting a 58mm for old Noctilux (Ffordes to not stock it from B&W!)

Wrong shop. Foto Huppert is the semi official B&W stockist and wil usually ship within 48 hours, except when the item is temporarily out of stock, as seems to be happening now with a worldwide shortage of UV/IR glass sheets - which applies equally to Leica filters, or a special order, which may normally take two weeks.

> Napa Leather bag that can hold an M8 body only ...etc

Luigi? And Leica offer a range of such things, if not this specific one.

Edited June 9, 2009 by jaapv

[Guest BigSplash]

Jaav you are commenting what is available from Leica today for the R cameras, and that old Telyt lenses do not have an aperture output. You are correct.....My point is why cannot the Leica design team build an "R" series of telephoto lenses, or a new range of lenses that DO have the required aperture data lugs and whatever else is required for use on:

1) A reflex adapter (New generation Visoflex with modern screen with aperture data, and camera shutter speed...if M8 could feed this across, albeit with modification)

2) A "R" digital or analogue camera

 

You say there is no volume need for this...if so why does the "R System" have available until recently the following telphoto lenses: 80,90,180,(f2), 180 (f2.8), 280, "70-180", "80 - 200", "280 - 800".....that is eight different lenses, which I guess represents a huge R&D investment plus tooling cost. I suppose therfore that there is a market need for these lenses.

 

I am unclear if these "R" lenses are no longer available since the "R digital" has been dropped. If they are not available I would not be happy if I was an "R" owner.

 

You say that the architectural shift lens will be available for the new reflex, and bellows etc also i guess....so why not make a lens system that can be backward compatible to M system with an appropriate visoflex? Has this been suggested as it seems all of my ideas have already been discussed at length....please advise.

[jaapv]

Yes, you are right and they have been discontinued, in fact the whole R system has been discontinued, due to practically zero sales and in preparation for the new "small" reflex system; and no, R owners are not happy about it:(

SH photo is handling the closure sale.

However, there is every reason to suppose that an R successor is in the pipeline, with a new range of AF lenses and retrocompatible with the R series lenses. Why would Leica develop a Visoflex ( not that simple, due to register length issues, nearly impossible in fact) that would eat into the sales of that camera?

Don't forget that the register of the R camera is shorter than the M with a Visoflex, so there are huge dimensional problems to mount an R lens on any kind of Visoflex successor.

 

Btw, you can use just about any SLR tilt/shift lens on the M8 with aid of a third-party adapter, using the LCD screen to chimp framing and focus. Slow, but doable for the purpose.

Edited June 9, 2009 by jaapv

[stunsworth]

I think it fair to say that I'll not be holding my breath for a new Visioflex or tilt and shift lenses for the M system.

[luigi bertolotti]

I think it fair to say that I'll not be holding my breath for a new Visioflex or tilt and shift lenses for the M system.

 

+1

[offshore]

I agree that the 21mm (ie 28mm on M8) is excellent. That said I would like to see a Leica 15mm lens...I guess you refer to Voigtlander 15mm (apparently very good) and Zeiss 15mm (apparently excellent!) .....but they are not part of the Leica supplied system, and that is a pity. I always worry buying none Leica bits in case they damage things and a lens that protrudes into the camera is a case in point.....The old Leica Hologon 15mm (f8) lens cannot be used on M8 for this reason...can the Voigtlander, and Zeiss?

 

I would prefer a full frame sensor and my view is so does everyone else if it is technically feasible, without picture degradation, and at a reasonable price.

I would also like to see a 15 but doubt I could afford it unless it was a Super Elmar and then many Leica users would bitch that it isn't fast enough. I'm sure that Leica are looking into a FF M but as has been stated by them, and numerous members of this forum who are the techies of the Leica world, it is not feasible with current technology given the distances of the rear elements to the sensor plane. If micro lens technology advances to the point where it can be applied to redirect light evenly over the edges of the sensor, where all the bad things happen, without having to rely on a processor to adjust the image quality, like the Japanese manufacturers do, then perhaps we'll see one. The other alternative is to increase body size to accommodate a larger sensor and move the rear elements further away from the sensor plane to get coverage evenly over the sensor and many users already complain about the size of the M8. No camera is perfect and probably never will be but, and this is my opinion, I think the M8 is one of the finest cameras I've ever used and I think history will bear this out. That Leica was able to use an APS H size sensor (the next best thing to a FF) and provide the image quality that they did within the restrictions they faced is something to congratulate them about. The M8 is one of the most versatile photographic tools to come along as it can reproduce B&W, color, b&W IR and color IR all in the same camera, I don't know of any other cameras on the market that will do that without some alteration. My M8 has provided me with three years of uninterrupted continuous use and images that are like no other I've taken with any other system I've used and if it is still going when I die will get passed on to my kids or grandkids.

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[Guest BigSplash]

OK Those who will not hold their breath awaiting a new generation Visoflex with Telyt lenses...let me ask:

1) Is this because there is no need for M owners to take close up (ie using bellows) photos? Doubt it!

2) Is it that the M owners do not need to use any lens above 90mm? I guess No!

3) Is it that M owners think that they will use the M system from 18 thru to 90mm (Probably spend say £3k for an M8 and a bunch of lenses at say another £6K to £8k for a Tri Elmar, and a Noctilux or some std. lenses) ....Then separately they will buy a separate SLR camera system for close ups and telephotos.) ? Sounds expensive for an amateur!

4) Is it because Leica will not do it as they are not convinced and are off building the "S" system , the DLux 4 system , the compacts and the custom specials, plus are looking at a new generation digital retrofittable "R" system? Possibly yes and then surely we should express our point of view as to an opportunity missed.

 

Jaav you say that the lengths are different...I know as I have a 400mm and a 560mm Telyt with two adapter tubes...one for the Visoflex and one for the "R" system...The actual lens elements are at the end and are the same for both camera systems.

 

I actually think the real issue is the weight balance of such a long lens if it were designed for two different camera systems.....but this is an engineering challenge, nothing else!