Disappointed with SL3

[davidmknoble]

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11 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

True. But if I bought a new L-mount camera I would be prepared for something different to happen after mounting a L-mount lens I already had. Yes, it might be easy to inadvertently mount a lens requiring an update to a camera with a battery only minimally charged. But the original comment was "Is there anywhere one can see that FW on SL lenses are released, so that one can avoid bricking a lens by mistake?". If one can forget to be careful when mounting older lenses to a new body, then one can forget to look online to see if there's a lens update.

Most SL firmwares also update lenses.  The pros I have talked with all update the firmware and then take awhile and attach each lens one by one to update the lens firmware.  It might be nice if the LED blinked to let the user now it was updating (and maybe it does and I didn’t look).

Because of this, I have not ever seen Leica publish a list of lens firmwares.  You update the camera and get any lens updates.

[davidmknoble]

A final aside on the lens discussions.  Remember that the Leica SL lenses are sealed - sand and water.  I use them in pretty harsh conditions and have not had them fail.  The sigmas and panasonics are weather resistent.  It is different.

Either way, the best camera and lens is one you go out and shoot images with!

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[Geoff C. Bassett]

On 3/12/2024 at 4:45 PM, Nedward said:

I've just received my SL3 and tested the 35mm and 50mm ASPH lenses, comparing both to Sony A7R5 and 35mm and 50mm G Masters. The lenses simply don't stand up to the Sony and as the whole reasoning behind buying Leica, for me is to experience the pinnacle of image quality, it looks like I'm gonna have to go down the APO route. Really thinking to myself, can I justify that..!

Also TBH, I'm not that impressed with the camera either, yes it's beautiful in hand and all the rest but first thing I notice is the shutter black out also the live view seems not really live until you depress the shutter half way and first impressions are it's a bit noisy at even quite low IOS (this remains to be really tested although). 

I know these are not going to be popular views here buy honestly Im thinking of returning it and sticking with my Sony and Q3. I love the brand etc but wondering is this just me or should I give it time.

 

 

If you prefer Sony that is fine, stick with it and save yourself some money for photography trips. 

That said, I really REALLY don’t like the rebadged Panasonic lenses. Very meh performers outside of the 85mm. I would give the APOs a shot by renting them if you can. 

I love Leica for their glass and color. Namely the 75mm F2 APO, 24-90, & 90-280. I absolutely adore these lenses and can’t see myself not having a platform to use them. That and Leica SL is the best platform for adapting m glass and maintaining quality, my Voigtlander 40mm 1.2 is great on it. The SL2 is my ideal camera in terms of body design. 

if your goal is purely sharpness? I don’t think Sony is a poor way to go. They make sharp lenses, but they also breath heavily and render in a way I don’t like in comparison. If you don’t mind the Sony layout, like the look, and love the results don’t switch. 

[Stuart Richardson]

If your goal is purely sharpness, depending on budget you would be best off with a 100-150mp camera. The GFX 100 will outresolve the SL cameras, and the Phase One cameras have been out long enough that can find a 100mp iq back for less than an M11 and apo lens.

But in any case you should not judge Leica lens sharpness on their Panasonic and Sigma rebadges. Try an APO Summicron. They are staggeringly sharp.  

[Photoworks]

There is a place for Panasonic lenses.

The Panasonic S lenses are made to be small, all the same size, and have similar weight distribution. All the same filter size, affordable.

Panasonic S lenses have faster AF, almost no focus breathing, and are well-corrected. This is very important for video shooters, and that is Panasonic's biggest focus.
They make a Pro line that reflects more of the Leica image quality.

SonyLeica Apo-SL lenses are best in class in sharpness, not overly sharp like many sony lenses, but lots of resolution and micro-contrast.
I have a few of the Panasonic S lenses, like 100 macro, 18mm, and 50mm. I mostly do People shooting in my line of work, often the 75 APO is too sharp to create magic, too much for skin details.  The 100 macro is optically as good as the Sigma 105, but af is very quick.

The Panasonic S lenses have a resolving power better than many Leica M lenses. I stopped using the 21 SEM and 18 on the Sl2 camera when doing architectural / interiors.

[algrove]

On 3/12/2024 at 5:23 PM, Nedward said:

Thanks for that, yes I am super confident that the APOs are outstanding and tbh I just can’t ever see myself using Sigma/ Panasonic or other glass on a Leica so it’s just a case of running a few numbers, factoring in a couple of APO lenses. I guess I can live with the black out, slow frame rate and mostly I’m an af single shot user, I can live with that too. Coming down to budget again I guess…

Black out-try using 120 instead of the standard 60. It might help.

 

Also used SL APO lenses are going for around $3k which is a good price for them.

Edited March 15 by algrove

[algrove]

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On 3/13/2024 at 10:22 PM, davidmknoble said:

Most SL firmwares also update lenses.  The pros I have talked with all update the firmware and then take awhile and attach each lens one by one to update the lens firmware.  It might be nice if the LED blinked to let the user now it was updating (and maybe it does and I didn’t look).

Because of this, I have not ever seen Leica publish a list of lens firmwares.  You update the camera and get any lens updates.

It shows when a lens is updating with a circle going back and forth on the LCD.

Edited March 15 by algrove

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, algrove said:

It shows when a lens is updating with a circle going back and forth on the LCD.

In EVF extended mode, the lens updating message appears in the EVF only, and pressing the menu or play does not work until the lens is updated. The lens updating message should always appear on the rear LCD. 

Maybe lens updates are not optional because they may not work properly until updated. Some SL lenses have a red sticker to remind you to update them before using them.

[goodbokeh]

On 3/13/2024 at 12:23 PM, eab said:

I dont know, I shot an SL2 for a bit but later sold it.  I just bought the new SL3.  I really like the reduced weight, it is tangible, the camera feels good in the hand, etc.  I enjoy the shooting experience much more so than my Sony bodies ( A1, A7R5, A7CR ).  I also bought a brand new APO SL35.  I compared it to the Sony with the GM 35 and honestly in terms of sharpness the GM edged it out in the limited testing i did.  I like the overall colors a little better but that was about it.  I actually think the Sony had better AWB if that matters for anything as it can be fixed in post.  I think the SL3 looks better from  noise perspective but I just read they do some in camera NR.  So i am not sure if I got a so-so copy of the APO.  I am definitely going to hang on to it, to see where this goes, as I really like using the body.  

 

eab, I also have the Sony 35 GM and the A1 & A7R5. I don't know what your lens testing protocols were, but unless the SL3 was on a tripod and using ES your APO SL 35 may not be showing you everything it's got in the tank.

Edited March 15 by goodbokeh
Typo

[algrove]

19 minutes ago, SrMi said:

In EVF extended mode, the lens updating message appears in the EVF only, and pressing the menu or play does not work until the lens is updated. The lens updating message should always appear on the rear LCD. 

Maybe lens updates are not optional because they may not work properly until updated. Some SL lenses have a red sticker to remind you to update them before using them.

IMHO, of course it won't show on the LCD in EVF Extended Mode since you are telling the camera to not display anything on the LCD.

[davidmknoble]

38 minutes ago, algrove said:

It shows when a lens is updating with a circle going back and forth on the LCD.

Yes, I was just responding to the person that just attached it and set it down.  If the LCD is turned away or you put the camera in the bag, it wouldn't hurt to blink an LCD.  I'm fine with the current solution and have never had a problem. 

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

If your goal is purely sharpness, depending on budget you would be best off with a 100-150mp camera. The GFX 100 will outresolve the SL cameras, and the Phase One cameras have been out long enough that can find a 100mp iq back for less than an M11 and apo lens.

But in any case you should not judge Leica lens sharpness on their Panasonic and Sigma rebadges. Try an APO Summicron. They are staggeringly sharp.  

This needs to be repeated more often. You'll get a more boost in "sharpness" by going-up to a larger format than you will from switching between two similar 60MP full-frame systems.

There's only so much information you can stuff into a 60MP grid. Better lenses help a little bit, but you are still at the limit of what the format can hold. If 60MP is your limitation (which means that you make very large prints), you need a bigger container.

The equation is exactly the same as it was with film. People tried very hard to make critically sharp 35mm prints, using TechPan or Agfapan 25, the sturdiest tripods, and the best technique, but their results were barely as good as what anyone can achieve with medium format and normal film. Large format is in another league.

[Jon Warwick]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

This needs to be repeated more often. You'll get a more boost in "sharpness" by going-up to a larger format than you will from switching between two similar 60MP full-frame systems.

There's only so much information you can stuff into a 60MP grid. Better lenses help a little bit, but you are still at the limit of what the format can hold. If 60MP is your limitation (which means that you make very large prints), you need a bigger container.

The equation is exactly the same as it was with film. People tried very hard to make critically sharp 35mm prints, using TechPan or Agfapan 25, the sturdiest tripods, and the best technique, but their results were barely as good as what anyone can achieve with medium format and normal film. Large format is in another league.

Completely agree. And funnily enough, when I read Stuart’s comment, I was similarly thinking about very fine grained films …..in my case my use of Adox 20 in the Leica M7, and how I concluded it was far easier and far better quality (not just resolution, but especially smoothness and naturalness of tones) to simply go up a film format.

I’m working through my comparisons of what I’ve shot with the SL3 and comparing them with my GFX100 because I was curious to see if the SL3 could replace the medium format digital for very large prints, but already it seems the larger real estate in terms of sensor size and higher megapixels of the 100mp (even with the cheaper lenses in the GF range) is still superior to anything I can get in terms of fine detail off the SL3, and perhaps more importantly with a more “relaxed” and smoother feel to the medium format prints.  Trying to push full frame digital too hard in terms of print size has taken me back to the similar thoughts I had when I tried to see if Adox 20 could replace the larger film formats!

Edited March 15 by Jon Warwick

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, algrove said:

IMHO, of course it won't show on the LCD in EVF Extended Mode since you are telling the camera to not display anything on the LCD.

EVF extended mode shows menu and image review on LCD, which does not appear because the lens is updating, and it, therefore, looks as if the camera is locked.

[sarkleshark]

I get a warning message on startup when using the old battery.  I cant do anything until i agree to the warning.  Is there any way of removing the warning screen altogether? I cant find any menu setting and it keeps popping up on every startup

[MediaFotografie]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb sarkleshark:

I get a warning message on startup when using the old battery.  I cant do anything until i agree to the warning.  Is there any way of removing the warning screen altogether? I cant find any menu setting and it keeps popping up on every startup

no, unfortunately you have to confirm the old battery manually every time you activate the camera; this is really not a good solution, was already often criticised during the test

[algrove]

Old batteries are just old batteries. Now Leica has jacked up the price of the new ones from $170 to $200. Wish I had bought a ton at $170 now.

[algrove]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

EVF extended mode shows menu and image review on LCD, which does not appear because the lens is updating, and it, therefore, looks as if the camera is locked.

Understand but the swinging circle indicates it is working on something. like with all FW updates but this is a lens FW update already included with the caner FW update.

[algrove]

7 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

Yes, I was just responding to the person that just attached it and set it down.  If the LCD is turned away or you put the camera in the bag, it wouldn't hurt to blink an LCD.  I'm fine with the current solution and have never had a problem. 

Nor me. Agree if updating a lens FW keep vigilant. It does not last forever. Although I did notice the APO primes update much faster than Leica SL zooms.

Edited March 15 by algrove

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[Hendo]

On 3/13/2024 at 12:23 PM, eab said:

I dont know, I shot an SL2 for a bit but later sold it.  I just bought the new SL3.  I really like the reduced weight, it is tangible, the camera feels good in the hand, etc.  I enjoy the shooting experience much more so than my Sony bodies ( A1, A7R5, A7CR ).  I also bought a brand new APO SL35.  I compared it to the Sony with the GM 35 and honestly in terms of sharpness the GM edged it out in the limited testing i did.  I like the overall colors a little better but that was about it.  I actually think the Sony had better AWB if that matters for anything as it can be fixed in post.  I think the SL3 looks better from  noise perspective but I just read they do some in camera NR.  So i am not sure if I got a so-so copy of the APO.  I am definitely going to hang on to it, to see where this goes, as I really like using the body.  

 

So in your opinion the Sony 35 GM is as good as the APO SL 35 mm? Well, thats quite amazing.