One more bug…

[Al Brown]

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2 minutes ago, fotografr said:

Anyone who believes these problems are unique to Leica might benefit from the following exercise; select any digital camera model, enter it's name along with the words "lock ups, freezes, corrupt files, bad exposures," etc., and do a Google search. 

I was not talking about freezes, corrupt files nor bad exposures. I was talking exclusively about data wrangling between SSD and card, the file conflict topic this thread is dedicated to. I also do not believe in whataboutism.

Edited March 10 by Al Brown

[Smogg]

2 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

I was not talking about freezes, corrupt files nor bad exposures. I was talking exclusively about data wrangling between SSD and card, the file conflict topic this thread is dedicated to. I also do not believe in whataboutism.

No one would have paid attention to this bug (it is really minor) if there had not been a global problem with freezes and file corruption. I was just trying to find a temporary solution for the year during which Leica will fix the main bug

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[Al Brown]

39 minutes ago, Smogg said:

No one would have paid attention to this bug (it is really minor) if there had not been a global problem with freezes and file corruption. I was just trying to find a temporary solution for the year during which Leica will fix the main bug

I wasn’t even calling it a bug. I was merely saying Leica was in 2014 as far as data wrangling is concerned. Editing my DNG file on my card? I only get the name afterwards when I put it in the camera. Yes, 2014….

[marchyman]

20 hours ago, lct said:

or perhaps i'm missing something again...

You are missing the disconnect between what is vs what is expected.   Sometimes this is referred to as the principle of least astonishment.   Many would assume that you could pick and choose images from internal memory to copy to a memory card.  I am one of those people.  Thus I was astonished that in the Leica implementation you can only copy to an empty memory card.  That is the disconnect.

To be fair, I have not actually tried moving one image at a time to a memory card that isn't empty.  I haven't tried because of what the manual says coupled with no particular need with my workflow.  But I certainly understand the need.  I can easily imagine someone flagging images to transfer, transferring those images, then deciding that they want to add a few more images but being told they can't.  Such would be seen as a bug.  Given what the manual says it might be classified as a design bug, but still a bug.  It's a "Leica did it this way but customers want it that way" bug.

[fotografr]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

I was not talking about freezes, corrupt files nor bad exposures. I was talking exclusively about data wrangling between SSD and card, the file conflict topic this thread is dedicated to. I also do not believe in whataboutism.

That would be the "etc." in my comment. 

[lct]

40 minutes ago, marchyman said:

[...] I can easily imagine someone flagging images to transfer, transferring those images, then deciding that they want to add a few more images but being told they can't.  Such would be seen as a bug.  Given what the manual says it might be classified as a design bug, but still a bug.  It's a "Leica did it this way but customers want it that way" bug.

I'm not good at imagination but Leica's instructions state clearly that the SD card must be empty and the M11 states the same. One may like it or not but i feel hard to see any bug in that. This reminds me of a good colleague who insisted in selecting lens detection auto for uncoded lenses. Leica's instructions said that "the lens type must be entered manually when using a Leica M lens without 6-bit encoding". Colleague did not like that and accused a bug in the firware and/or a translation from German to English if i remember well. There were none IMHO. It was just a feature of the camera one may like or not but nobody's forced to acquire a camera that does not meet their expectation.

[Gelatino]

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This evening a picture taken ISO auto, Speed auto, single shot is not readable on the camera and on LR. I don't remember it has ever happended before  with this FW.

May be the AI in the camera judged it was not a keeper🤔. The two following taken as a test are normally readable .🙄

 

Edited March 10 by Gelatino

[tom0511]

Love the internal memory. I wish my Canons had that as well.

[PhilippWe]

The problem is the already existing directory structure when the M11 expects an empty card, the names and dates of creation of the folders are indeed already there from previous use and the M11 does not overwrite it or add images inside the directory.

[Ecar]

17 hours ago, Gelatino said:

This evening a picture taken ISO auto, Speed auto, single shot is not readable on the camera and on LR. I don't remember it has ever happended before  with this FW.

I get that too. And rather frequently. Both on the M11 and M11M.

Last occurrence was yesterday. First shot after power on. No freeze but a lost image.

Edited March 11 by Ecar

[BradS]

File copy is a very basic and fundamental utility. The issue described by the OP is not even a bug. It is an abject, pitiable failure. What's worse, the instructions make clear Leica were very much aware of their failure to implement this basic function well in advance of product release. An unbelievably pathetic failure.

[marchyman]

22 hours ago, lct said:

but i feel hard to see any bug in that.

If you ever get a chance give the book "The Design of Everyday Things" a read.  It might change your perspective on what is and is not a bug.

[Knightspirit]

I saw this as well when I started using the internal memory. I think the solution is to have the camera write to both cards (same files) as you are shooting. Once the internal memory is full - you should see some kind of error stating that it can no longer use that setting. Then reformat the internal and continue shooting. Anyone try this? I bet it will work.

 

UPDATE : So I just reformatted my internal memory card - left all other files on the SD - and sure enough, I am good to go. Camera is working normally with no errors and is writing the new files to both internal and external storage...

Edited March 12 by Knightspirit

[lct]

6 hours ago, marchyman said:

If you ever get a chance give the book "The Design of Everyday Things" a read.  It might change your perspective on what is and is not a bug.

Thank you @marchyman, i'm sure this book i did not read can interest others but i don't want to know if a glitch is a bug when i don't see any glitch in my camera. All my cards work fine on the M11 so when i need more than 64gb i simply use my 256gb card as main storage. YMMV.

 

[Smogg]

4 hours ago, Knightspirit said:

I saw this as well when I started using the internal memory. I think the solution is to have the camera write to both cards (same files) as you are shooting. Once the internal memory is full - you should see some kind of error stating that it can no longer use that setting. Then reformat the internal and continue shooting. Anyone try this? I bet it will work.

 

UPDATE : So I just reformatted my internal memory card - left all other files on the SD - and sure enough, I am good to go. Camera is working normally with no errors and is writing the new files to both internal and external storage...

I assume that recording on 2 media at once will further increase the load on the unfortunate processor, which is already unable to cope and causes freezes. More load - more freezes

[Knightspirit]

1 hour ago, Smogg said:

I assume that recording on 2 media at once will further increase the load on the unfortunate processor, which is already unable to cope and causes freezes. More load - more freezes

I have not found that to be the case. I’ve been using the internal=SD setting for weeks and it’s been ok. Maybe give it a try and report back…

[jaapv]

On 3/10/2024 at 7:23 PM, marchyman said:

 It's a "Leica did it this way but customers want it that way" bug.

That is not a bug. It is a failure of due diligence.

[LikameLeica]

On 3/10/2024 at 4:40 AM, geoffc60 said:

Most mirrorless cameras I've owned - Canon R3, R5 and Fuji GFX 100S have had glitches/crashes of one kind or another. Forums are full of stories like this.

I have been a faithful Leica convert since the Leica SL, then upgrading to the SL2 and SL2-S.  The Leica M was my dream idea of a camera and eventually went for the M11.  I can tell you that I have never been so frustrated with a love / hate relationship with this camera continue to feel so unreliable.  I have tried to be patient and await firmware updates to create a reliable camera that does not let me down, but I am beginning to firmly believe that the camera has a hardware issue related to overheating and this eventually creates the freezing/lock screens.  For the amount of money (that I gladly paid for the expected experience and reliability) I am truly let down and disappointed.  I want so much to love my M11 and the amazing picture quality that I get, but the instability of the camera is getting in the way.  I would like Leica to replace my camera and let me see if it is the hardware of truly the software.

[marchyman]

17 hours ago, lct said:

but i don't want to know if a glitch is a bug when i don't see any glitch in my camera.

Change the subject, much?  The comment was about an operational design choice that Leica made, not a glitch in your camera. It seems you don't like the word "bug" so I'll use the words @jaapv used: a failure of due diligence.

I've been guilty of that failure, myself.   When users of software I've written point out that the program/device doesn't work as they expect I most often try to change the code to meet their expectations.  Sometimes I try to explain why their expectations are unreasonable.  Never do I point to the documentation and say "that's how it is documented".

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[jaapv]

Although you have every right to do so; I admire your customer-friendliness. Not knowing why Leica made the choice makes criticism a bit up in the air.