Ballet with the SL2 or rather the Nikon Z7 ii?

[bdolzani]

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Great opening shot indeed @tkp. I'm following this discussion to glean any comparison to shooting live music (americana/folk). I love using my M's (240 + 246) but now considering adding an SL (601 most likely, just to start there at a lower cost) or getting a Nikon DSLR (I've never owned a dslr believe it or not) for film scanning as well as perhaps for concerts and landscape. 

What lens/length were you using for the first photo - that is a crop you say? Fairly big crop? 

cheers

Brian 

Edited June 20, 2023 by bdolzani

[Tkp]

7 minutes ago, bdolzani said:

What lens/length were you using for the first photo - that is a crop you say? Fairly big crop?

This was shot with the Summilux 75/1.4 on the M10M. A 90 would have been better. Below you can see the ratio of the crop vs the full frame image.

Cheers,
Tom

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[bdolzani]

Wonderful, thank you Tom. My 90's have done great on the 246 for shows. What lens(s) did you get for the Nikon?

Edited June 20, 2023 by bdolzani

[tangosix]

4 hours ago, Tkp said:

Thanks - which APO did you use? And interesting to read that you come from the Z7 ii as well. It is a fantastic camera and does nothing wrong, but I gues I am a little overwhelmed by it, coming from mainly analogue photography 😉.

I understand exactly what you mean by ... the z7ii can be overwhelming.  It is as if some of the controls or menu settings where hidden from me when I needed to react quickly.  Yes, I realize that you can set memory buttons any way that you like, but I can now drive the sl2s with two fingers in the dark without thinking about it.  The menu system works for my brain intuitively. 

So far, I use the 50 APO and the 75 APO.  The 50 is my all around work horse, but the 75 is something special.  I intended to pick up the 90, but have been so satisfied with the all around use of the 75 that I have not made it there yet. 

[pgh]

19 hours ago, Tkp said:

Thanks a lot for your reply - many good points to consider!

You are actally talking to someone who just accompanied a big band from Southampton to New York onboard the Queen Mary 2 and shot a documentary on Ilford film with a Rolleiflex 2.8 - the result was a book... So yes, sometimes I like to suffer a bit when it supports the narrative of the story 😉 .

Regarding the ballet photography, I intend to build up a portfolio of a certain quality that still reflects my style. While the M is certainly not the most suitable camera for this (but at that time it was the only digital camera with high ISO capabilities that I had), I don't enjoy shooting with computers as much as with a more manual camera. So I am looking to find the right balance between technology that supports the photographer and an "autopilot". 

I understand this completely having also shot a book on a pair of rolleis (and an M6).

FWIW, for me, the SL2, while I enjoy it - is still very much shooting with a computer. A nicely designed one, but still a computer - which is essentially any mirrorless that you look at a screen instead of life through the viewfinder.

In fact, the only digital cameras that don't feel like that for me are older dSLR's - which I don't really like anyways - or the M. So my argument is along the lines of "if you're gonna shoot with a computer - use the best computer for the job." Again, no shade to the SL2. In the end, I find it to be a much more capable camera if it's thought of more along the lines of studio/landscape. Not that it can't go out in the field well, just - the quickness isn't the same. 

[Tkp]

Am 21.6.2023 um 00:41 schrieb bdolzani:

Wonderful, thank you Tom. My 90's have done great on the 246 for shows. What lens(s) did you get for the Nikon?

I got the Nikkor Z 24-70/2.8 and 70-200/2.8; guess I would only use the longer lens for the upcoming show.

[Tkp]

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Am 20.6.2023 um 22:51 schrieb Photoworks:

I was a staff photographer for the opera house in Berlin for many years, and the ballet was part of it.

...and I just noticed that I was listening to your podcast with Michel Birnbacher today 😉

[Photoworks]

6 hours ago, Tkp said:

...and I just noticed that I was listening to your podcast with Michel Birnbacher today 😉

funny, small world!

 

https://www.instagram.com/kroke/

[katieg]

I’ve had both systems (Nikon Z7ii & SL2), also a long time M shooter & love zone focusing, however for the situation you are describing I would absolutely use the Nikon. The autofocus system on the Nikon is just that much better than SL2 & I’m someone who wanted to be “all in” on Leica but just couldn’t get over the slower AF system for those types of scenarios. I just upgraded to the Z8 from Z7ii and the autofocus 3D tracking mode is brilliant. I have a lot of fun using it and it does not feel like a “computer”, yes the menu system takes a little getting used to when you’re switching between Leica and Nikon systems but there’s a few YouTubers I’m happy to recommend that have great easy-to-follow tutorials on how to set up the Nikon for the shooting style that would benefit you in this situation.  
 

My personal opinion is that high ISO performance is better on the Nikon Z system over the SL system right now. The digital noise “grain” I get from the Nikon I actually prefer over SL2. 
 

Different strokes for different folks, you already have the Z7ii system, I would see no reason to switch, such a great camera. 

[Tkp]

I have now a few cameras here to test:

Leica SL2 and SL2-S with the SL90/2.APO and Nikon Z7ii with the Z85/1.8

Needless to say that I can’t keep them all 😅, so I made a very quick and unscientific comparison at Iso1600, 3200 and 6400 (the latter not with the Nikon for whatever reason). If you’re interested, here are the files in original size:

https://www.picdrop.com/tomklein.photo/2A3Aw5Jc2j

As said, this comparison was just out of curiosity and quickly shot tonight before sunset. 
 

Tom

[Tkp]

Am 6.7.2023 um 03:08 schrieb katieg:

I’ve had both systems (Nikon Z7ii & SL2), also a long time M shooter & love zone focusing, however for the situation you are describing I would absolutely use the Nikon.

 

Thanks a lot! As you can see, I have done a first non-scientific comparison of the SL2/SL2-S and Z7ii in my garden to get an initial idea about the noise (must not forget to send back what I don’t buy, otherwise it’ll be an expensive month 😅).

What is your experience regarding the EVF lag on both the Leica and the Z7ii? The Nikon has 60fps and the Leica up to 120fps. Wouldn’t that be an advantage for the SL2/S?

Tom

[Tkp]

Am 6.7.2023 um 03:08 schrieb katieg:

there’s a few YouTubers I’m happy to recommend that have great easy-to-follow tutorials on how to set up the Nikon for the shooting style that would benefit you in this situation.

Oh, and I’d be very interested in these 🙂. Thanks!

[katieg]

1 hour ago, Tkp said:

Oh, and I’d be very interested in these 🙂. Thanks!

Hudson Henry’s videos are excellent and easy to follow. I used his recommended set up video for my Z8 and I’m having a blast.

 

I mean, both kits you have to test are very good especially with the lenses you are testing with, doesn’t get much better than either of those, I think it now comes down to user experience for you. I didn’t notice the EVF lag on the Z7ii all that much, it’s been awhile since I shot with SL2 system. 
 

 

[Tkp]

I had the opportunity to test the SL2, SL2-S and Nikon Z7ii at the ballet yesterday night. I had no major problems with the AF, but steered the AF field each time manually, which is a bit difficult when holding the camera in portrait mode (easier with the Nikon). Shot everything at ISO 3200 max; the SL2 had visible but still OK grain, the Nikon strange colours and the SL2-S came out best so far...

[Tkp]

A few more details and a sample: 

So I tested all three cameras at the rehearsal: SL2 and SL2-S with the SL Summicron APO 90/2 and the Nikon Z7ii with the Nikkor Z85/1.8. My - admittedly very subjective - observations were as follows:

- I had put the backfocus button on the SLs on the joystick, which made focussing and moving the focus field with the thumb rather easy. On the Z7ii, the backfocus button was separate from the cursor buttons, so I always had to move the finger. This can probably be adjusted in the settings though by allocating another button, so not blaming the Nikon for that.
- The SLs are slightly bigger than the Z7ii, and felt better in my hands. However, they were both easier to operate in landscape mode vs portrait. 
- Image quality wise I was a bit disappointed by the SL2 at ISO 3200... the images were OK, but looked a bit muddy vs the SL2-S. I was really prepared to love the SL2 (since I had a good offer;-)), but the 2-S simply delivered better, crisper results. The Z7ii was somewhere inbetween, so quite useful in case crops are needed.
- The colours of the SLs looked to be more spot-on than those of the Nikon, but that can be due to the different stage lights. I also have some shots with the Nikon where the colours turned out beautiful.
- Both the Nikkor Z85/1.8  as well as the SL90/2.0 APO are fantastic lenses, although I love the SL90 more in the end (it also comes with a considerably different price tag).

Bottom line: I did not use the SL2 for the main performance any more as I had decided during the rehearsal that I would return the SL2 to the seller. Having shot the actual performance with both the SL2-S and the Z7ii I felt that the SL2-S matched my workflow better, so I eventually bought a nice second-hand SL2-S. The Nikon was mine already anyway, so unless I get a good offer I will keep both for the time being.

Attched a sample of the SL2-S & SL90/2.0 APO combo

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