M11 w/Leica 24D Flash

[davekcooper]

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Hello,

I'm trying to get my M11 and 24D to get along. I'm using a Nikon SC-17 cable, and while the flash will fire in TTL mode, I cannot seem to get a proper exposure so it seems to me that TTL is simply not working. I checked the batteries and they have plenty of power in them. I've told the flash what aperture setting I'm using, and set the ISO on the camera to 800. The shutter speed is set to the flash sync setting (lightning bolt).

It simply does not appear to be working as a TTL flash. I'd appreciate any advice. I'm open to the possibility of needing to buy a more modern TTL flash but am hoping that won't be necessary.

Thanks!

[Luke_Miller]

Don't have an M11, but use the SF-24D on my M240 successfully.  For TTL you don't need to enter aperture and ISO.  Just make sure it in in TTL/GNC mode. You only need to enter aperture when in Auto mode.  The camera will supply the ISO value.  Do you have the SF-24D manual?

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[sdk]

I am pretty sure the SF-24D TTL mode is not supported by digital M models released after the Leica M typ 240 series. It can be used in manual or automatic mode with M10 or M11. This flash was designed for the Leica M6TTL and M7 film cameras, and digital camera sensors have different reflectivity than average films do so it was not optimized for that. Also the M11 dropped having a light sensor pointed at the sensor or film. I think this type of reflectivity sensor was also used for TTL flash support in the cameras that are compatible with the flash, but the M11 uses the sensor itself for light metering.

The M11 manual recommends the Leica SF-40 for TTL flash photography.

Edited November 7, 2022 by sdk

[Photoworks]

I think Leica said that A mode on the flash and M can be used in the newer cameras.

The M11 has a totally new system of lightmeter on the sensor.

I have used the SF-60 and it work on the M11 well, I would imagine the SF-40 is the same. this are the only 2 flash compatible with new leica.

The SF-C1 + SF60 works well on the M11. You can also use the Nikon cable with the SF-60 on the M11 in TTL.

I have tested the new godox Trigger for Leica , and it is not compatible with M11.

At this point there are only this 2 options with TTL.

the SF-60 is similar to Nissin i60A. The Nissan does not work on the hotshoe on TTL, but in combination with SF-C1 it can do TTL if it has the latest firmware 9-7

[davekcooper]

Thank you all for the information. It looks like I'll be selling my 24D to buy the SF 40 as I want TTL in order to work more quickly. @Luke_Miller I found a digital copy of the manual online. 

[sdk]

I just don't use flash enough these days to bother upgrading my old SF-24D to an SF-40. Plus there is no way to use a flash and the EVF on the M11 at the same time. But my old Rice U photo professor Geoff Winningham though Leicas were the best cameras to use with flash because you could continuously see through the RF viewfinder with no interruption from the mirror. Geoff said his friend Gary Winnogrand did a lot of flash photography in Texas with his Leicas, overexposing and using a compensating developer. Of course this was in the film days, when Geoff was using a Leica M4-P as his RF camera. He went digital with the M8 and M9, etc.

[RexGig0]

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For a while, I frequently used an old film-era Nikon SB-30 flash, on a modern digital Nikon SLR, due to its small, handy size, its sturdiness, and the CR 123 batteries it used, which I also used in quantity, to power unrelated equipment. I had to use the flash in its Manual mode, and found it quite easy, once I became accustomed to it. Based upon that experience, I bought two Leica SF-24D flashes, specifically planning to use them in their Manual mode, on M10 and M Type 246 cameras. I have subscribed to this discussion, to help remind me to post how these flashes perform, for me, though its relevance to usage on the M11 will be minimal, unless/until I add an M11 camera, which may be a while.

I do remember several sources indicating that Leica flashes, up to and including the SF-58, do not perform very well in TTL mode, on digital M cameras. Some of these sources have stated that they had better luck using Auto mode, than TTL mode. The only source that I recall, at this moment, is a Mark Wallace video, on Adorama’s you-tube channel.

My main point is that using Manual mode, with a flash, is not as intimidating as I thought it would be. A good place to start is to set the camera about a stop underexposed, and the flash at one-eighth, then learn by experimenting, in various conditions. I did that with Nikon gear, and soon, was guessing correct exposure, most of the time. That is what I plan to do, with my SF-24D flashes.

Edited to add: One way that this post may be relevant, to the M11, is that the new M11, as well as some number of Nikon DSLRs, use Sony sensors.

Edited November 8, 2022 by RexGig0

[charlesphoto99]

TTL was terrible with the 24 and 58 on an M6TTL, M7, M9 etc. (not tried with M10-R though I still own the 24 but use a Profoto A1X these days). A preflash, and then lots of lag before the actual flash, so if photographing people, awkward expressions as they think the pre-flash is the shot. FWIW I've always used A mode or Manual on my flashes (back in the day a Nikon with a Vivitar 285 mostly). Now it's quite easy to use manual mode with digital as one gets instant feedback. Talking with a Getty photographer a few years back at Sundance, he said he always used manual, even with his Nikon D4 and SB900. That was a surprise to me, but he said it was always easier to get assured results for him vs TTL or about modes. 

[davekcooper]

I'm reading lots of talk about using manual settings and I see the logic. In fact, that's what I've been doing as well for a few years with one exception. When I got an SF 60 (since sold) I used it in TTL mode and the results were pretty effortlessly good for digital. It made for such a simple workflow. For instance, while shooting if you got closer to the subject you didn't need to make any adjustments on the flash or camera, which is great because I'd typically have the flash in one hand and the camera in the other, and seeing as how the Leica is fully manual, my hands were kind of full! Fumbling for settings on camera or flash made for clumsy work. TTL solves that for the most part.

I should mention that I am primarily an available light photographer and sort of hate strobes and flashes for the kind of work I shoot that "moves" me. However, I'm always looking for new ways to express myself and don't want the equipment to get in the way. 

[charlesphoto99]

Caveat: my experience with Leica TTL flash predates the SF60/40 or the 240/M10/M11. It could be much better now with no lag between preflash. But previously there was such a lag that TTL was mostly unusable. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by charlesphoto99

[lct]

FWIW the SF-26 works fine on the M11 but it is not easy to find.

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[davekcooper]

Thanks for the info. I decided to pick up a Leica SF 40. Works exactly as I hoped it would. Funny, it was a few hundred dollars cheaper than the older 24D. 

[mikelevitt]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:09 PM, davekcooper said:

Thanks for the info. I decided to pick up a Leica SF 40. Works exactly as I hoped it would. Funny, it was a few hundred dollars cheaper than the older 24D. 

Cheaper?  What's up with the crazy prices on the SF24d?  A year ago it was a cheap flash that nobody wanted.  Doesn't work very well on the newer cameras in TTL.  I have a SF60 that works a little better, but still not great if compared to any other brand of flash.  It baffles me that Leica gets so many things right, but always misses on the flashes....

[geotrupede]

24D has a lot of good. first, TTL is no use. but instead you get the auto mode which is simply brilliant, adjust output based on your ISO/aperture combo and then regardless to the distance the little flash will adjust accordingly. this is really a good feature which sadly very few units currently made have.  then the light output is good, and the light really nice and punchy

BUT

it sleeps a lot. this flash has the tendency not to fire, at times. I hade more than one of these and the behaviour is not always the same but some of them really sleep too much. and this, as far as I can tell, cannot be adjusted.

so in practical terms for street, you need to beware of camera going to sleep (and keep pressing the shutter to avoid) and the flash too (and keep pressing the +/-).

this is a little too much pressing and in the end it is likely that the shot will be missed.

I have since moved on and gotten a new godox lux senior, not as good as the 24D because the auto provided is simpler, but reliable 200%.

G.

 

 

[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, geotrupede said:

I have since moved on and gotten a new godox lux senior, not as good as the 24D because the auto provided is simpler, but reliable 200%.

I have returned it because I didn't get the impression that the flash was actually doing any A adjustment . It looked to me that the Information in the back where just a range indicator to where the flash performs.

Can you tell how you set it?

I am used to set the ISO and the F-stop and the reflected sensor regulates the amount of light.

[geotrupede]

see manual here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ynpo9o9dxbrbvvm/AABLUfdtblg4F4YiDOa0h_87a?dl=0

in theory you set A, then pick the ISO and the F in the menu, ensure that the flash is firing (shutter < 250th) and then use same ISO and F in camera.

to check you could could try with and without a finger blocking the light meter on the flash  (a small circular opening in front of it, about 3mm wide). the output should change dramatically unless you are in pure darkness.

[davekcooper]

For anyone who is curious, I sold the flash for $400 on eBay. I paid $450 for a used SF 40 in Like New condition. Totally worth it and the flash is way more reliable.

[stephengv]

On 11/13/2022 at 1:13 AM, lct said:

FWIW the SF-26 works fine on the M11 but it is not easy to find.

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So the SF 26 works on the M11? Will it work on future M digitals?

[lct]

30 minutes ago, stephengv said:

Will it work on future M digitals?

Give me an M12 and i will tell you  Just kidding i have no idea at all. Being a discontinued model i would ask Leica.

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[Santos]

I actually use 24D Flashes Exclusively (Got 4 for future proofing). I usually set it on TTL/GNC Mode and it works perfectly! Tried it on the Following Leica CM (Made for it so doesn't count), the New M6 (I hate the Synch Speed its low, but shot a whole role and was pleasantly surprised!), M10D, M10M, and M11. In fact my Profile Picture was taken by my Friend using the M11 and 24D (After I blinded her with that Combo she wanted revenge and it turned out sick!). I use Nikon Cables too sometimes when I need Different Directions (Forgot the Model Designations, the Coiled Cable Ones. Used the Ones with and without a Light Meter (the Light Meter or what I think it is [Little Clear Red Box] doesn't work though but the Cable does). Also used it on the G1 and G2 since two of the Four I got are Gold Colored and they Worked Perfectly!

Edit: Let me make sure it was not on Auto Mode! Once I am out of work I will go test it out again.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Santos