28 Summilux vs. 28 Summicron Asph V2

[Ouroboros]

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1 hour ago, LarsHP said:

Check some of my images here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ngYCuU1OzRZVbnbjGtwge1Mx78vuUp8q

Most are with the Ultron v2, but there are some side-by-side test shots as well.

Thanks, but the first and only image I opened was a vignette comparison taken with an adapted lens on a Nikon Z6 which isn’t really appropriate.  If you can upload some comparison images taken with a (preferably recent) digital M, I’ll take a look.

[hdmesa]

8 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I’m seeing a few comments here about how much better the Ultron is than the summicron, but I’m not seeing anything at all to support the claim in any of the Ultron images posted here.

The 28 summicron asph has been central to my Leica M lens selection for years and still is, my first  was a v1 which I changed for a safari edition in ‘21 mainly for the more sensible slide-and-lock hood. 

Some contributors here who are critical of the summicron seem to have both the summicron and Ultron, so how about posting some comparison images to back up the opinions?  

 So far, I’m either missing something in the images or I’m wasting my time reading forum bs.

Let’s see some definitive comparison examples, please!  If the Ultron is the genuinely better lens, I might be tempted.

 

 

I much prefer the Cron for the reasons I've mentioned already: smoother bokeh across the frame, no "swirl" at f/2 at close distance with busy backgrounds, and mostly because it doesn't have that "hyper contrast" look of the Ultron. I love how calm the Cron rendering is. 

But the only criticism of the Cron here has been by some wanting another option with more character for use on film. I don't think anyone had any IQ problems with the Cron or said the Ultron had better IQ. 

 

3 hours ago, Photoworks said:

...if you shoot the leica lens on an M body you would get vignetting correction a bit better controlled...

Even with lens corrections turned off, the Cron has noticeably less vignetting at f/2 than the Ultron. 

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[Steven]

On 5/5/2023 at 6:46 PM, Huss said:

I had the 28 Elmarit Asph which I thought was awesome and should have never sold...  At that time I also had the 7A 28 1.4 (optically actually very good but I hated the size and the mechanics), so my rationale was to consolidate to the Summicron Asph v2 and sell the 7A and Elmarit.

I currently also have the CV 28 3.5 LTM (bought it years ago for crazy cheap before people noticed it was a great lens) and the TTA 28 5.6 in black paint.  I got the TTA purely because the black paint limited edition Summaron 28 looks incredible - and the TTA looks just like it.  Optically of course it is very different, but surprisingly good.

Had the Orion 15 28mm f6 - another surprisingly good and extremely lightweight lens, but I sold that to rationalize the purchase of the TTA 28.

Pic taken w Orion 15 and HP5

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Awesome, you're a 28 die hard shooter! Which one is your favourite ? Mines are the Summilux and the Summaron. Although I just reacquired an elmarit ASPH that I had been hunting for a long time. Silver. 

[Steven]

On 5/6/2023 at 1:36 AM, mmradman said:

Credit for seducing you with Summaron goes to someone else, I never had or handled that lens.

Yes, my bad. It was actually @ianman, I think. 

 

[Steven]

On 5/7/2023 at 5:28 PM, hdmesa said:

But the only criticism of the Cron here has been by some wanting another option with more character for use on film. I don't think anyone had any IQ problems with the Cron or said the Ultron had better IQ. 

Correct. I prefer my lux, my summaron, or my elmarit to the cron, in any scenario. I find the cron to be to dull. You (not you, @hdmesa) can  blame me for it if you wish, but the truth is that if you you read through the various forum threads, you'll find out that I'm not the only one feeling this way. Many have said it, since many years. 

a 28F2 is pretty useful in my 28 lineup though, so I bought the Ultron V2 as an alternative. While I like it better than the Cron, it's still my least favorite of the 4 lenses. What I prefer from the Ultron over the cron is: 

- a bit more imperfect at F2 is quite useful for me. If I need perfect, I close half a stop. 

- I enjoy  swirly bokeh in general

- it actually feels well built and much smaller than the cron 

- the micro contrast makes it less dull in my opinion than the cron. It kind of has that Q2 look that make people look like there are going to come out of the image. 

[Huss]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

Awesome, you're a 28 die hard shooter! Which one is your favourite ? Mines are the Summilux and the Summaron. Although I just reacquired an elmarit ASPH that I had been hunting for a long time. Silver. 

Daylight - the TTA 28 5.6 as I love a compact camera/lens combo and this lens (on film) is much better than it should be.  This would be replaced by the black Summaron if I had one...

All around? Summicron Asph v2.

[hdmesa]

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7 hours ago, Steven said:

...

- the micro contrast makes it less dull in my opinion than the cron. It kind of has that Q2 look that make people look like there are going to come out of the image. 

You have the v1 28 Cron, right? Could have been a coatings tweak for the v2. The v2 still doesn't have the crazy microcontrast of the Ultron, but it's by no means dull, at least on digital.

I wonder the Cron on film it may be better suited to a higher contrast stock than the Portra stock you like to use. Portra by Kodak's intent is very neutral and keyed to skin tones. Portra has morphed into something else today due to the processing preferences. Back in the day, when I had Portra developed by a large professional portrait lab (had to prove business ID, did not service the general public) and printed on Kodak's pro portrait paper, the look was unlike anything I see produced with it today. Just thinking out loud here, that you may be caught in the trap of matching your lenses to your film stocks versus finding some freedom to do the reverse.

Edited May 9, 2023 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

35 minutes ago, Huss said:

...the black Summaron if I had one...

It's only money https://www.ebay.com/itm/155436389356

[Huss]

8 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

It's only money https://www.ebay.com/itm/155436389356

Yah, that ain't gonna happen!  I just don't get why Leica did not/does not make that a regular product.

[hdmesa]

15 minutes ago, Huss said:

Yah, that ain't gonna happen!  I just don't get why Leica did not/does not make that a regular product.

One minute the limited edition version is silver, the next minute, it's matte black. Makes no sense at all. I would love to see Leica make the regular version of a lens in brass and black paint then make the limited edition anodized black. The fools would still pay $$$ to have the limited one.

[Steven]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

You have the v1 28 Cron, right? Could have been a coatings tweak for the v2. The v2 still doesn't have the crazy microcontrast of the Ultron, but it's by no means dull, at least on digital.

I wonder the Cron on film it may be better suited to a higher contrast stock than the Portra stock you like to use. Portra by Kodak's intent is very neutral and keyed to skin tones. Portra has morphed into something else today due to the processing preferences. Back in the day, when I had Portra developed by a large professional portrait lab (had to prove business ID, did not service the general public) and printed on Kodak's pro portrait paper, the look was unlike anything I see produced with it today. Just thinking out loud here, that you may be caught in the trap of matching your lenses to your film stocks versus finding some freedom to do the reverse.

I have the silver and the titanium. I think they are both V1. At least the silver is. The titane one as a screw in hood so maybe it's v2. I like neither. 

[Steven]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

Yah, that ain't gonna happen!  I just don't get why Leica did not/does not make that a regular product.

Get a silver one (It's much better than the TTA, I have both, it's night and day). Send it to shueido for repaint. It will be even nice that the limited edition cause you can ask them to also paint the mount in black, so it doesn't have that ugly (IMO) silver line when you mount it on your camera.

[hdmesa]

3 minutes ago, Steven said:

I have the silver and the titanium. I think they are both V1. At least the silver is. The titane one as a screw in hood so maybe it's v2. I like neither. 

Yes, the titanium is a v2 👍

[hdmesa]

7 minutes ago, Steven said:

...I like neither...

28 is tougher than 35 for me. I like the Cron ok, but I don't love it. I don't like the Ultron at all, mainly because of the external design. The Lux is wonderful on the SL2-S, but it's not my favorite to use on a film M just because of the size.

Only 28 I really love is the Summaron with the Q lens a close second.

Haven't tried the Elmarit yet. Nice score on getting the silver one. The hood is too long on the regular version for my liking.

[Photon42]

I have had the Summicron 28 v1 as one of my first Leica lenses (on the M8 it was closer to a 35mm FOV...) until the end of 2021. After lots of thinking between the Lux and Cron I finally decided to stay with the Cron but update to v2 version. Jono Slack I think wrote a quite nice comparison of the two. To my knowledge Peter Karbe once said the three different 28mm lenses in the Leica M line-up effectively only differ in the maximum aperture, but I cannot find the reference anymore.

The driver for me was that I really enjoy the handling of the lens, picture quality (there is nothing dull about this lens) and of course compact size and weight. It just feels right on the M for me. And it has a filter thread of 46mm, just like for instance the 50 Lux and the 90 Summarit.

[Terin]

23 hours ago, Steven said:

I find the cron to be to dull.

 

I'd like to understand what you mean when you define a goal as "boring". Photos can sure be boring, but a lens?

[Steven]

5 hours ago, Terin said:

I'd like to understand what you mean when you define a goal as "boring". Photos can sure be boring, but a lens?

Ah, the eternal question ! Do lenses matter ! 

Of course, what's in the photo is the one and only thing that really matters in the end. But we're not here to discuss each other as photographers, but rather our appreciation of the way a lens reproduces something the photographer saw... 

That being considered, by boring I mean: without any signature. Neutral. When I see a 28 Summilux wide open shot, I recognise it immediately. Same for the Elmarit, and even more true with the summaron. Each of the lens I own, most of them are 35s, have their unique signature, that I enjoy since I chose to own them. I find (and others over the years have said the same) the 28 summaron to be a bit dull. It has no signature. It brings nothing to the table. It's a bit like a the white screen of an iPad on which a digital artist is going to draw something, but I'm more the type to go at the store and chose the texture of my canvas... 

I originally come from a cinema background, and in cinema, a cinematographer always put a lot of efforts into choosing the right lens for the story. Of course, if the screenplay is bad, the lens on its own won't make a good film. But still, Oscar winner cinematographers (and non Oscar winers too!) find great pleasure into choosing the right lens to tell their story. 

A lens, to a cinematographer or a photographer, is what a brush is to a painter.

Hope I explained myself a bit better. Signature is the keyword. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Steven

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

...the 28 summaron to be a bit dull. It has no signature. It brings nothing to the table...

Assuming you meant to type Summicron instead

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, Terin said:

I'd like to understand what you mean when you define a goal as "boring". Photos can sure be boring, but a lens?

I'll give my own two cents: Agree with Steven that the 28 Cron has "no signature", but to me, that is its signature. It's an extremely well-corrected lens that doesn't impose its own will into the image as do many lenses with more flaws (character). Images on the M11 taken with the 28 Cron ASPH look exactly like shots taken on the GFX 100S with the GF 30 f/3.5. The result is near technical perfection.

That said, the 28 Cron still has some nice vignetting at f/2, which I think keeps it from being completely without character – provided you shoot it without the lens profile corrections applied.

28 Cron on the M11:

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[LarsHP]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:57 PM, Ouroboros said:

Thanks, but the first and only image I opened was a vignette comparison taken with an adapted lens on a Nikon Z6 which isn’t really appropriate.  If you can upload some comparison images taken with a (preferably recent) digital M, I’ll take a look.

It isn't a stock Z6 (which would be useless; agreed). It's an Ultra-Thin sensor glass converted Z6 (by Kolari Vision). Regarding field curvature / plane of focus, it behaves like a digital Leica M camera. This is not guesswork. I have tested that camera versus an M 240 with the 28mm Summicron-M Asph II. The Z6UT had more vignetting, but way less color shift / Italian flag issue. So, you can safely go back and check the images. 😉😁