Questions about Leica M lens performance on M11 (new information on Reid Reviews site, 3/22)

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4 minutes ago, wizard said:

The question is whether your assumption is valid. That is, should there be equal or even better corner sharpness on the M11 with any given lens? Just because there are more pixels doesn't mean that sharpness will improve. Detail resolution may improve IF the quality of the lens allows that. On the other hand, if the quality of any given lens is just good enough for 40MP, you may begin to see some lack of quality in a 60MP image, if zooming into the image far enough. More pixels means more detail information, which possibly results in a little less sharpness under critical inspection. However, if the same magnification factor is used for both the 40MP and 60MP shots, there should be no visible difference.

Yes completely agree laws of physics, if the lens limits the resolution no sensor can outperform it. M11 at same magnification (i.e. "same size print") is a step backwards in corner resolutions vs M10R and M10M in every example I have seen, would be great to have examples to the contrary if they exist --- so the M11 sensor is a constraint on the lens which delivers better effective corner resolution (same size print) on older Ms.

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43 minutes ago, lct said:

Thank you @mzbe. By "older 28" do you mean the Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1 below?. Also how would you compare the M11 to M10P and/or M10R re corner quality putting aside M10M and SL2 if i may ask?

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I don't know which lenses work better or worse at this point, thanks for asking for clarification - when I say "older", history of Leica Ms illustrates that "pre-digital" lenses designed for film had greater issues on several generations of Ms over time (... good source to appreciate the journey would be Leica forums and reviews, including e.g. Overgaard and this forum).

I have found the most systematic resource for comparison of many generations of specifically Leica cameras is Reidreviews, as Sean Reid has repeated the exact same test setup over many years, using the same lenses on different bodies. This would allow you to confirm the corner resolution observations without having to do too much leg work (just check the reviews of the same lenses on different bodies and do a side by side comparison). loyd Chambers also has done some good analysis over the years, with perhaps some not so fond feelings about Leica (I have recently stopped to visit his site due to his political content). Fred Miranda on his eponymous site also does a great job in a consistent way to compare lenses and bodies in his extensive reviews, he is a M mount aficionado and good source of comparison across many examples of M240/M10 vs. "non M" lens/body combinations. I feel that M11 is starting to show some of those characteristics that he reported from "non M" cameras with M lenses.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Guest

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[lct]

I wonder if you're forgetting sensor stack thickness folks. Any info about that on the M11? The fact (?) that it performs better on 28/2.8 asph v2 than v1 might mean that... or not?

Edited March 23, 2022 by lct

[lct]

3 minutes ago, mzbe said:

I don't know which lenses work better or worse at this point, thanks for asking for clarification - when I say "older", history of Leica Ms illustrates that "pre-digital" lenses designed for film had greater issues on several generations of Ms over time (... good source to appreciate the journey would be Leica forums and reviews, including e.g. Overgaard and this forum).

I have found the most systematic resource for comparison of many generations of specifically Leica cameras is Reidreviews, as Sean Reid has repeated the exact same test setup over many years, using the same lenses on different bodies. This would allow you to confirm the corner resolution observations without having to do too much leg work (just check the reviews of the same lenses on different bodies and do a side by side comparison). loyd Chambers also has done some good analysis over the years, with perhaps some not so fond feelings about Leica (I have recently stopped to visit his site due to his political content). Fred Miranda on his eponymous site also does a great job in a consistent way to compare lenses and bodies in his extensive reviews, he is a M mount aficionado and good source of comparison across many examples of M240/M10 vs. "non M" lens/body combinations. I feel that M11 is starting to show some of those characteristics that he reported from "non M" cameras with M lenses.

I wondered if you have a personal experience with the 28/2.8 asph v1 because it is mentioned by RR and is known as a rather difficult lens. Now i have nothing against RR or any other reviewer but i prefer personal experiences of colleagues here, let alone that "reviews" based on closeups or short distance subject matters are of limited interest to me. YMMV .

[Photoworks]

6 hours ago, mzbe said:

of course: 

direct quote from Leica support, if you decide to believe the poster -

Quote-----

Many thanks for your feedback.

The chromatic aberrations are currently a normal behavior of the M11.

Future firmware updates will bring i.provements here, please be patient.

Unquote------

Please note that this is not the only source of purple fringing examples. It is the only source of Leica acknowledging the issue to the point where they even promise to "paint it over" in future firmware.

yep overexposing is an issue for CA. I can see often CA with Noctilux 0.95 on M10-P, M10-R and M11 have more resolution and details, even in the CA range LOL

I suspect the firmware lens profiles have little impact on the correction, But I like for Leica to prove me incorrect!

Under normal use the CA is manageable in Lightroom , Capture One still has a way to go..

[tashley]

10 hours ago, Kwesi said:

For the record,

I use the 28/2 ASPH v2 (current version) on the M11 with no issues.

Lucky you.  Have tried a range of 28s on the M11 (five in total) and have yet to find one I consider satisfactory. 

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15 minutes ago, tashley said:

Lucky you.  Have tried a range of 28s on the M11 (five in total) and have yet to find one I consider satisfactory. 

Tim - I put tons of stock into your judgment and experience, thanks for sharing!

Have you had an opportunity to try the Summilux 28mm f/1.4? One of my favorite lenses ... I know to expect purple, but not sure about edge smearing, and about ability to avoid purple with extreme shooting discipline?

[IkarusJohn]

It’s a shame Sean didn’t test the 28 Summilux-M, or the 21 Summilux-M.  I have found both lenses fabulous on my M10-D and SL; yet the 28 Summilux has been described as “unusable” on the M11.

As to the 50 Noctilux 0.95, this is one of a number of M lenses better on the SL than the M10 - and it has little or no purple fringing on the SL.

[Tailwagger]

54 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

yet the 28 Summilux has been described as “unusable” on the M11.

Yeah, I said that... but I feel the need to clarify that this was w.r.t. to the over abundance of CA present at wider aperture in strong light, most of which can be addressed in LR, but not entirely. Stopped down, less of an issue... though one doesn't buy the 'lux to shoot at solely at F5.6 or 8. For street shooting, I'd doubt you'd notice it. But, at least this time of year in New England with all the bare branches, it can be an issue. It should also be noted that while I'm tolerant of most character issues, I have a deep and abiding hatred of CA in particular.  I suppose, like the M11, we all have a few character flaws. 

As for 28mm, I haven't enjoyed my 28 Elmarit V3 this much since I sold the M240. AFAIC, it really shines, as do all my Mandlers, on the M11. 

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1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

Yeah, I said that... but I feel the need to clarify that this was w.r.t. to the over abundance of CA present at wider aperture in strong light, most of which can be addressed in LR, but not entirely. Stopped down, less of an issue... though one doesn't buy the 'lux to shoot at solely at F5.6 or 8. For street shooting, I'd doubt you'd notice it. But, at least this time of year in New England with all the bare branches, it can be an issue. It should also be noted that while I'm tolerant of most character issues, I have a deep and abiding hatred of CA in particular.  I suppose, like the M11, we all have a few character flaws. 

As for 28mm, I haven't enjoyed my 28 Elmarit V3 this much since I sold the M240. AFAIC, it really shines, as do all my Mandlers, on the M11. 

Yes - a good/bad/ugly representative collection of real-world M11 purple fringing (and non-purple fringing) images is here: https://www.thephoblographer.com/2022/01/13/three-great-cameras-in-one-leica-m11-review/#high-iso-update-february-2022

If you scroll down to some of the night shots, e.g. in the bar, here is one of the illustrative ones (no EXIF, but he states that the 28mm Summilux is one of his favorites).
The size is 100% from a 6MP JPG, i.e. 1/10 of the size of the purple mountain in the original full size DNG - nothing to do with "because it's 60 MP you will find more absolute pixels", the percentage of contiguous purple areas (at this point would no longer call them seams?) relative to total image area is very impressive:

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I know that purple fringing is not new, and not the end of the world ... Yet, fair to say that M11 seems to offer it more than other cameras?

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Guest

[tashley]

7 hours ago, mzbe said:

Tim - I put tons of stock into your judgment and experience, thanks for sharing!

Have you had an opportunity to try the Summilux 28mm f/1.4? One of my favorite lenses ... I know to expect purple, but not sure about edge smearing, and about ability to avoid purple with extreme shooting discipline?

Thank you - blush - but sadly I haven’t - I tend only to want one really fast lens on each range and I have a 35 lux - 28mm is a ‘sometimes’ focal length for me so a smaller slower lens is a better fit in terms of a collection of glass and being lighter to carry helps, so its the 28mm F2 and F2.8 M glass that I’ve had no success with….

[tom0511]

I have not used the same lenses as Sean Reid, but I have used the M10r and a beta M11 for some time now, and I realized some advantages for the M10r with wide angle in the corners as well. It was-however-nothing that would keep me away from the M11. It also seems to be that the M11 sensor is somewhat more prone to purple fringing.

I did for example compare the WATE, the 28/1.4 and the 21/3.4 on both cameras, and also compared it to the 16-35SL lens.

The SL2+16-35 seems ahead in the corners than all those M combinations. Sharpness is one thing, the other thing is strong vignetting.

If I was a landscape shooter who wants strong resolution in the corners with minimum vignetting, the M System (no matter which body) would not be my first choice.

For my sort of shots (including landscape shots) I dont this total consistency all over the frame.

I do however agree that I would expect from a new generation model like the M11 to be at least as good as the previous model in all regards.

I think I still want a M11, I really like the metering system, and overall I find the sensor to be pretty good.

 

[tom0511]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn:

It’s a shame Sean didn’t test the 28 Summilux-M, or the 21 Summilux-M.  I have found both lenses fabulous on my M10-D and SL; yet the 28 Summilux has been described as “unusable” on the M11.

As to the 50 Noctilux 0.95, this is one of a number of M lenses better on the SL than the M10 - and it has little or no purple fringing on the SL.

Who says it is unusable? I can not confirm, eventhough I can confirm it shows some purple stuff when being used at wide f-stop.

[Kwesi]

13 hours ago, tashley said:

Lucky you.  Have tried a range of 28s on the M11 (five in total) and have yet to find one I consider satisfactory. 

For all I know, I may not be so lucky,

I mostly shoot at around f4 on the 28/2 V2. indoors I shoot wide open but then contrast is low.

I will shoot wide open in daylight and see what's going on.

 

[Overgaard]

The piece by https://www.reidreviews.com is interesting and I think you can read and conclude one or the other. He test f/2.8 lenses, and for me the 21/1.4 and 28/1.4 are the real Leica jewels. 

And then Leica is coming with firmware update (at some point) to fix CR/purple fringing and more. It's almost impossible to conclude anything before that arrives. I think what https://www.reidreviews.com concludes on page 8 is right and a good guide.

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, tom0511 said:

Who says it is unusable? I can not confirm, eventhough I can confirm it shows some purple stuff when being used at wide f-stop.

@Tailwagger - see post #29 directly above.

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, Overgaard said:

And then Leica is coming with firmware update (at some point) to fix CR/purple fringing and more. It's almost impossible to conclude anything before that arrives

Extremely happy to hear they intend to address the issue, but I think this news allows me at a minimum to conclude that I'm neither insane nor being overly picky.  Note I left out incompetent as the jury is still out on that one. 😃

[Overgaard]

14 hours ago, mzbe said:

Yes - a good/bad/ugly representative collection of real-world M11 purple fringing (and non-purple fringing) images is here: https://www.thephoblographer.com/2022/01/13/three-great-cameras-in-one-leica-m11-review/#high-iso-update-february-2022

If you scroll down to some of the night shots, e.g. in the bar, here is one of the illustrative ones (no EXIF, but he states that the 28mm Summilux is one of his favorites).
The size is 100% from a 6MP JPG, i.e. 1/10 of the size of the purple mountain in the original full size DNG - nothing to do with "because it's 60 MP you will find more absolute pixels", the percentage of contiguous purple areas (at this point would no longer call them seams?) relative to total image area is very impressive:

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I know that purple fringing is not new, and not the end of the world ... Yet, fair to say that M11 seems to offer it more than other cameras?

 

No, that is not purple fringing. that is LED light reflecting in a bar. Just like in this one where you can see that that light source is present. 

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5 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

No, that is not purple fringing. that is LED light reflecting in a bar. Just like in this one where you can see that that light source is present. 

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Thorsten, thanks for the detective work! I have bravely/foolishly decided to keep my M11 order and received shipping notification today, should be here in a week. Nothing beats first hand experience, I promise to test and report back on purple fringing with all my current lenses, including Summilux 21/28 and Noctilux 50.

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[Overgaard]

This is how purple fringing looks, and how it appears. It's not huge purple areas, it's edges where one side of he edge is very bright, and you see is almost only when you zoom in. So on a 60MP sensor it's recorded for anyone with idle time to zoom in and examine details. 

To get purple edging, you have to
1) shoot wide open
2) miss focus a bit
3) Have a high-contrast edge
4) of which one side is over-exposed 

To not have purple fringing, you:
1) shoot with low contrast light (shade or overcast, or everything is in sunshine so there is balance)
2) Hit the focus on that area 
3) or stop down so all is in focus
4) eposure correctly for highlights. 

To get rid of purple fringing in a file, you:
1) Use de-fringing tool in software
2) or (in Capture One) select the purple edge and desaturate that color). 

 

Detail:

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Full picture Noctilux f/0.95: