Questions about Leica M lens performance on M11 (new information on Reid Reviews site, 3/22)

[Tailwagger]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I love the fact that Leica are always trying to do better, but I would love to be able to buy the best 24MP, M mount camera that can be done in, oh, 5 years?

At that resolution, likely made in France, assuming they survive that long.

[pgk]

45 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

..... I would love to be able to buy the best 24MP, M mount camera that can be done in, oh, 5 years?

Well, that makes two of us!

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[lct]

Little question to M11 users: when you downsample to 36 or 18MP do you notice different results re corner smearing or color shifts? Just curious.

Edited March 25, 2022 by lct

[Overgaard]

Just now, lct said:

Little question to M11 users: when you downsample to 36 or 18MP do you notice different results re corner smearing or color shifts? Just curious.

Not that I have noticed, so I guess no (only did 37MP, never tried 18MP). 

[LocalHero1953]

29 minutes ago, pgk said:

Well, that makes two of us!

.....three......

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Little question to M11 users: when you downsample to 36 or 18MP do you notice different results re corner smearing or color shifts? Just curious.

Haven't looked as I've yet to notice anything at 60 MPx that I wouldn't have seen on my previous Ms... certainly nothing like what I see on the SL2, something that few others seem all that bothered by.

[Adam Bonn]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Adobe users especially, but it’s also possible that the image editing software will evolve to work better with the M11.

There’s been some speculation that Adobe’s M11 profile ‘is not final’ - personally I doubt this (they’ve profiled it already why do it again? The sensor or the color checker chart* aren’t really subject to change), but I don’t doubt that adobe needs to tinker about under the hood to get their profile to work better with their incumbent demosaicing algorithms, lens profiles etc (they only make one profile per lens then adapt the image pipeline to work with it. Also (in case maybe you didn’t know) Adobe tailors their editing algorithms to each camera, ie +25 sharpening or shadow recovery etc isn’t the same across all the cameras, even if the slider value is (say) +25 for each

At the end of the day it’s a new camera, it features variable resolution which adds another level of complexity for the SW coders and there’s people testing it and flagging up issues and concerns and it will get better!

A little simile.. I follow MotoGP (top level motorcycle racing) 

The official Ducati team launched  their all new GP22 for this season. Big improvements, best bike yet yada yada. First race of the year was won by a customer (non official) team using last years’ Ducati bike… when quizzed about this Ducati said No we’re not worried - last years’ bike has two years of set up data behind it, our bike is brand new. Last year’s bike is as perfect as it can be but now end of life. The new bike still needs dialling in, but the potential is massive.

Hang in there folks.

 

*They more likely use modelling from sensor data than color checker charts, but the point stands.

[Overgaard]

13 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

 

There’s been some speculation that Adobe’s M11 profile ‘is not final’ - personally I doubt this (they’ve profiled it already why do it again? The sensor or the color checker chart* aren’t really subject to change), but I don’t doubt that adobe needs to tinker about under the hood to get their profile to work better with their incumbent demosaicing algorithms, lens profiles etc (they only make one profile per lens then adapt the image pipeline to work with it. Also (in case maybe you didn’t know) Adobe tailors their editing algorithms to each camera, ie +25 sharpening or shadow recovery etc isn’t the same across all the cameras, even if the slider value is (say) +25 for each

I think it's the Adobe RAW camera profile that is referred to, which hasn't been released yet. 

 

In the tech talk a week after the release of the Leica M11, product manager for the Leica M Jesko von Oeynhausen, said: “The PROFILE M11 is the embedded profile that we have developed and it differs quite significantly from the Adobe Standard: The PROFILE M11 is more saturated and I would recommend to try both out to see, which profile matches your taste the best. It depends on which settings you have in Lightroom, which profile opens first (as the default). As the PROFILE M11 is highly saturated, I would recommend to use the Adobe Standard profile for high ISO files, to get a lower ground noise. And yes, as for profiles you just have to try it out to see which one is best for your needs.”

https://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M11-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-2.html#Editing-Leica-M11-pictures  

Tech Talk, the part about Adobe profiles is here, 46 mins into the talk. 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Overgaard

[LBJ2]

On 3/25/2022 at 9:33 AM, LBJ2 said:

Has anyone ever tried using a Zeiss UV filter on the Noctilux 50 0,95 to see if that helps to reduce purple fringing? I think I remember reading somewhere the Zeiss UV filter in particular could be effective at limiting purple fringing. 

FWIW, I have a 67mm Zeiss UV filter ; too large for the Noct 50 0,95. But thought I would try it anyway. I did a quick but sloppy test with the Noct on both the SL2 and M11. BTW, I didn't see any difference in the amount of chromatic aberration appearing in the image between either camera and the Noct without the filter. And to answer my own questions, holding the UV filter to the front of the Noct I didn't see any difference in the chromatic aberration with to without the UV filter.

I have a step-up ring on order for a more precise test once it arrives. I also plan to compare the above with the M10-R too. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by LBJ2

[Jeff S]

7 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

chromatic abrasion …

…chromatic abrasion 

I use petroleum jelly to treat abrasions.

Jeff

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

I use petroleum jelly to treat abrasions.

Jeff

Opps ✅

[Adam Bonn]

4 hours ago, Overgaard said:

I think it's the Adobe RAW camera profile that is referred to, which hasn't been released yet. 

 

In the tech talk a week after the release of the Leica M11, product manager for the Leica M Jesko von Oeynhausen, said: “The PROFILE M11 is the embedded profile that we have developed and it differs quite significantly from the Adobe Standard: The PROFILE M11 is more saturated and I would recommend to try both out to see, which profile matches your taste the best. It depends on which settings you have in Lightroom, which profile opens first (as the default). As the PROFILE M11 is highly saturated, I would recommend to use the Adobe Standard profile for high ISO files, to get a lower ground noise. And yes, as for profiles you just have to try it out to see which one is best for your needs.”

https://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M11-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-2.html#Editing-Leica-M11-pictures  

Tech Talk, the part about Adobe profiles is here, 46 mins into the talk. 

 

Thanks for the link Thorsten,

Not sure what is meant by ‘Adobe RAW camera profile’

There’s the adobe standard profiles, which every camera that adobe supports has it’s own one, and also for the past few years the new ‘adobe color’ ‘adobe landscape’ ‘adobe portrait’ etc ones

The standard profile is camera specific and is adobe’s take on a colour match for a particular camera (so the M9/10/10R/11 etc are all different) so adobe has hundreds of these, one for every camera they support

The adobe color/landscape/etc profiles are generic, there’s only one of each and they’re designed to work with all the cameras (they have a line of code in them that calls up the adobe standard profile, then further work them into a standardised space using a 3DLUT)

The adobe standard profile for the M11 has been available (AFAIK) since about December 2021 when it appeared in the DNG Converter update

This is the profile that I don’t see them updating, they made it already and very seldom do they take two bites of that cherry

The adobe color profile is generic. Maybe they’ll update it.. but if they do it will be for all cameras not just the M11

The adobe profiles have way more stuff in them than the Leica ones. I’ll resist the temptation to list it all out 😂 but basically the Leica profiles contain WB transformation information for un-white balanced RAW data and nothing else, whereas the adobe ones manage un-white balanced RAW data right through the demosaicing process and beyond (D50 chromatic adaptation, refinement and gamut compression)

Anyway, enough colour geekery!

 

[Photoworks]

On 3/25/2022 at 9:33 AM, LBJ2 said:

Has anyone ever tried using a Zeiss UV filter on the Noctilux 50 0,95 to see if that helps to reduce purple fringing? I think I remember reading somewhere the Zeiss UV filter in particular could be effective at limiting purple fringing. 

many of us with this lens want to protect the investment, Leica stated often that filter infant of this lens will reduce IQ. Important is to use the lens shade swell to avoid the loss of contrast and minimize glaring .

in any case I am not sure how a filter can improve the purple fringing, it does not change the optical flow of light once passed the filter. I like to be proven wrong...

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Adam Bonn said:

Thanks for the link Thorsten,

Not sure what is meant by ‘Adobe RAW camera profile’

There’s the adobe standard profiles, which every camera that adobe supports has it’s own one, and also for the past few years the new ‘adobe color’ ‘adobe landscape’ ‘adobe portrait’ etc ones

The standard profile is camera specific and is adobe’s take on a colour match for a particular camera (so the M9/10/10R/11 etc are all different) so adobe has hundreds of these, one for every camera they support

The adobe color/landscape/etc profiles are generic, there’s only one of each and they’re designed to work with all the cameras (they have a line of code in them that calls up the adobe standard profile, then further work them into a standardised space using a 3DLUT)

The adobe standard profile for the M11 has been available (AFAIK) since about December 2021 when it appeared in the DNG Converter update

This is the profile that I don’t see them updating, they made it already and very seldom do they take two bites of that cherry

The adobe color profile is generic. Maybe they’ll update it.. but if they do it will be for all cameras not just the M11

The adobe profiles have way more stuff in them than the Leica ones. I’ll resist the temptation to list it all out 😂 but basically the Leica profiles contain WB transformation information for un-white balanced RAW data and nothing else, whereas the adobe ones manage un-white balanced RAW data right through the demosaicing process and beyond (D50 chromatic adaptation, refinement and gamut compression)

Anyway, enough colour geekery!

 

The primary indicator that M11 support is still pending is the missing M11 in the table of supported Leica cameras (link).

[anickpick]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Jeff S:

I use petroleum jelly to treat abrasions.

Jeff

and putting petroleum jelly on filters (or the front element) reduces chromatic aberration.

[Adam Bonn]

58 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The primary indicator that M11 support is still pending is the missing M11 in the table of supported Leica cameras (link).

Yup, (and like I keep saying) it’s not the camera profile they need to create, that’s done already. It’s how that profile interacts with the nuts and bolts of how LR/ACR works. I expect we’ll see improvements there.

 

 

[jaapv]

This  fringing discussion is based on a misunderstanding of what purple fringing is:

Quote

Purple fringing  is not chromatic aberration, though it’s sometimes mistaken for it.

It’s a saturation phenomenon in the sensor, also known as “blooming,” caused by overflow of electrons from highly saturated pixel sites to nearby unsaturated sites. It tends to be worst in cameras with tiny pixels (< 2μm). It has everything to do with the sensor and little to do with the lens.

I think that we can safely assume that Imatest knows very well what they are talking about.

The reason that the effect is less on some lenses and that a filter may reduce it is caused by the reduction of edge contrast AKA IQ loss.

[Overgaard]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

This  fringing discussion is based on a misunderstanding of what purple fringing is:

I think that we can safely assume that Imatest knows very well what they are talking about.

The reason that the effect is less on some lenses and that a filter may reduce it is caused by the reduction of edge contrast AKA IQ loss.

I wish that was all there was to it. But good research, well done on finding that!

The Noctilux f/0.95 produce purple fringing generally, when you work against strong light sources, so that isn't a sensor problem (alonew). M9, M11, SL2, same effect to larger or smaller degree. So an optical challenge of some sort is involved. 

That the 28/1.4 seem to produce purple fringing on M11 and less on other sensors, that gives hope that it is a sensor issue and that it might be fixed with firmware. We'll be wiser on this I guess, as new firmware arrives. 

The purple fringing and CA discussion can be a little too much. I was testing 21/1.4, 28/1.4, Nocti, 50 APO etc yesterday trying to produce purple fringing, and you have to work to get that stuff to appear. Photographing trees against the light is a given as it has all the hard contrast and overflow you can dream of, and parts in focus and all other parts in different degrees of out of focus. But most other subjects, there has to be specific super high contrast (strongly overexposed) areas to get that condition where an edge or more produce purple fringing.  

[LBJ2]

For my casual testing. I used a chrome plated device with strong window light shining on the Chrome. Easy to induce purple/green with this approach. 

I've always gone with this lens-based definition of chromatic-aberration and then divided into Longitudinal Chromatic Aberration or Lateral Chromatic Aberration depending on where in the frame I see the effect and if it can be removed in LR or not and then there are lenses that can present both which can be even more confusing. 

"Chromatic aberration, also known as “color fringing” or “purple fringing”, is a common optical problem that occurs when a lens is either unable to bring all wavelengths of color to the same focal plane, and/or when wavelengths of color are focused at different positions in the focal plane. Chromatic aberration is caused by lens dispersion, with different colors of light travelling at different speeds while passing through a lens. As a result, the image can look blurred or noticeable colored edges (red, green, blue, yellow, purple, magenta) can appear around objects, especially in high-contrast situations." 

https://photographylife.com/what-is-chromatic-aberration

Even more confusing IMO as posted above written by Imatest,

"Purple fringing is not chromatic aberration, though it’s sometimes mistaken for it" It’s a saturation phenomenon in the sensor, also known as “blooming,” caused by overflow of electrons from highly saturated pixel sites to nearby unsaturated sites. It tends to be worst in cameras with tiny pixels (< 2μm). It has everything to do with the sensor and little to do with the lens." 

I know Sony's in-camera lens compensation/optical correction feature comes with three options to correct for shading, chromatic aberration and distortion. My guess is something like this can also be added via firmware on the Leica M11 to help abate sensor blooming/Purple Fringing (maybe even as soon as March 31st 😉😉) as seen in the 28/1.4 samples if indeed that is sensor blooming and not lens based Longitudinal or Lateral Chromatic Aberration.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jaapv]

I think that the confusion can be ascribed to regarding the lens and sensor separately. In reality we are talking about an integrated imaging system where lens and sensor interact (similar to the resolution confusion on the Internet)

However, as LR and ACR do have controls to eliminate or mitigate both red/green (clearly a purely optical problem)  and purple/blue fringing (blooming) we should not be too concerned regarding the end effect on our photographs.