Is the Panasonic S1R the better Leica SL2?

[Paul2660]

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On 1/26/2022 at 1:06 PM, aksclix said:

So you’re referring to focus bracketing? In camera stacking is only offered by Panasonic and Olympus unless it’s not available on Fuji.. I have the gfx 100s and there is no stacking in camera.. stacking outside in a software is possible with almost all cameras I believe..

I use the terms interchangeably, focus stacking and bracketing.  What I would like to see in the SL2 is the ability to set the near and far point, have the camera automatically take the number of images needed saved as dng.  Then I would use Helicon to combine them after converting dng to tif.  The S1R does off the ability to stack in camera and combine the images to a jpg, which I guess is a nice feature, but it will also just take the images in sequence for combination later, like the Fuji GFX, Nikon Z7 allso do.  

I also would love to see the self time moved from a shooting mode to just a feature that can be used with all shooting modes.  Only multi shot offers the ability to fire it with self timer.  I would like to be able to shoot the exposure bracketing mode with a self timer on the release. 

Paul 

[Simone_DF]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:22 AM, Archiver said:

I'd be interested in a SL2-S vs Panasonic S5 comparison in terms of image quality and autofocus. The S5 continues to impress me with its image quality, although the lures of the fully alloy body and controls are strong. If the S5 has the same quality and autofocus capabilities as the SL2-S, there's no real need for me to spend that money.

I had both cameras for a couple of weeks. The S5 autofocus was a hair faster than the SL2s, but the difference was barely noticeable in real life situations. For a variety of reasons, I decided to keep the SL2s, but I'll probably sell it and get a S52 whenever Panasonic will release it. 

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[jaapv]

On 1/19/2022 at 5:39 PM, douglas ball said:

2. While there are more buttons, they serve a purpose. I have it set up so that I seldom go into the menu system. I can quickly see at a glance how the camera is set. Most change of settings can be seen through the viewfinder. Learning the menu may take more effort, but the time spent is worth it.

That is the point, Panasonic c ontrols are well thought out. Yes, there is a overdose of controls, but it is not hard to set the camera up to control it without delving into menus and without taking it from your eye. Especially the S5 is interesting with the left wheel controlling series and selftimer. The main buttons are a row of three above the shutter and the focus control switch and button come under the right thumb.  Thumb and index wheel customizable, the user profiles are under an analog wheel as well. It is about all I need

[IJGRAY]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:06 AM, Paul2660 said:

To me, each body has it's own advantages. 

It's clear both are using the same sensor, not sure on cover glass.  

SL2, Love the design, and look and feel of the body.  Menu system once you get used it it is very straight forward and easy to use in the field. LR/ACR only offer Adobe default dng color profiles (IMO a huge disadvantage) and I have no real desire to attempt to create a series of profiles.  I would prefer to browse as you can in C1 and pick a similar camera to start with.  The default adobe profiles are pretty poor.  However this is true for any camera that creates raw as dng (with adobe). 

The lack of focus stacking in camera is a huge oversight and should be something Lecia adds with firmware.  I can't see any reason that they can't have it and it's pretty standard with all AF cameras.  Lack of ability to combine the self timer with exposure bracketing is another strange issue.  Leica makes the self time a actual exposure mode, not a feature that can be used with all various exposure modes.  Intervalometer feature IMO is not laid out like most standard intervalometers.  

EVF is excellent and LCD only lacks ability to tilt.  May see that in next camera. 

Remote port is a old style microphone jack, that literally no one else uses anymore (all others using a microphone jack use the smaller micro plug style).  This makes using 3rd party remotes difficult as you have to find an adapter to take the camera port down to a micro size that also has the correct internal layout.  They are available.  

Only IBIS works, with a non Leica lens (no reason for this if there is a true L alliance).  

Battery life is not good, and battery cost is excessive $285.00 per battery?  And they are rarely in stock. 

Manual focus is excellent and doesn't cut out the outside of the frame

Getting to various shooting modes, i.e. exposure bracketing, multishot, single shot, high speed continuous etc. is the easiest I have found by way of the Leica menu 

SL2 is limited to only SD slots thus can't take the much faster CF Express cards. 

S1R, 

Bigger, and heavier body, much more hands on design with all the buttons.  Menu system is a older looking font and not as straight forward as the Lecia setup.  Getting to shooting modes like bracketing or multshot is less straight forward as on the SL2, and requires several menu clicks to get to them. 

Tilting LCD is a plus, as for my shooting style it just makes setting up low or off angle shots so much easier

Battery life IMO is about as bad as SL2, at least on the 3 I have

Manual focus is not as straight forward, as the Panasonic has a frame about the outside of the image displayed on both EVF and LCD which prevents you from getting to the very edge of any scene to check your focus. 

Playback is also strangely limited to 8x as if you go to 16x image is too blurry to really check your focus.  True only on normal 47MP images, on MS you can use the 16x. 

AC/LR have dedicated profiles for the S1R, (camera matching)

S1R takes CF Express, huge deal for me due to much faster write speeds. 

S1R takes a micro port for remote so any 3rd party intervalometer or remote will work. 

it does seem that the S1R is either discontinued or at least is in very limited production.  Only found 1 US vendor that had them in stock.  They do show up often used on various sites and could be a great backup.  Panasonic has been very quiet about the S1R future, with most of their focus on the S1H (and IMO the SL2-S is a better camera and the price gap is closer than S1R and SL2). 

Both cameras take excellent images and offer great features.  They are using what I feel is 1 generation back CMOS chip, in that the DR in shadows just is not the same as with a Sony Sensor in the same size range.  With use of DxO's Pure raw I have found that this issue can be vastly improved.  

 

Paul C 

I was told by one retailer that they no longer sell the Panasonic S1R. They did, however, have one for sale second hand at a very good price. The salesman told me he did’nt know why they had stopped selling it. This made me suspicious and I decided not to buy it. Does anyone know anything more about the production of the S1R. Has production stopped and why.

[hdmesa]

On 1/30/2022 at 11:34 AM, Paul2660 said:

I use the terms interchangeably, focus stacking and bracketing...

These are two different terms with two different meanings.

Focus bracketing is only the act of taking the individual photos. Focus bracketing can be used for focus stacking, either in-camera or later in software, but it can also be used to achieve a single image that is correctly focused on the subject, and the rest of the images are discarded.

 

[MrSMW]

18 hours ago, IJGRAY said:

I was told by one retailer that they no longer sell the Panasonic S1R. They did, however, have one for sale second hand at a very good price. The salesman told me he did’nt know why they had stopped selling it. This made me suspicious and I decided not to buy it. Does anyone know anything more about the production of the S1R. Has production stopped and why.

Whether it's still in production or not wouldn't and hasn't bothered me. Used, for anyone who wants a high megapixel mega camera, it's a steal such as: https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equipment/used-photo-and-video/used-mirrorless-cameras/used-panasonic-mirrorless-cameras/panasonic-lumix-dc-s1r/

I bought mine used towards the end of last Summer at just 1500 euros, 'as new' (from a colleague here in France).

I don't know if it's still in production but sales must be low due to the combined factors of: size + lack of decent tracking AF for video + Panasonic's usual crap marketing.

Advertising does not equal marketing. Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Leica all make a buzz, especially on social media such as YouTube whereas Panny only seem to put out officially approved pieces and do not allow commentary. It's a stupid policy if you ask me, but what do I know...

Despite shooting themselves in the foot all day long every day with the AF issue and the lack of 21st C marketing buzz, I still prefer their product over anyone else's right now, but they are such an irritating company!

[beewee]

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20 hours ago, IJGRAY said:

I was told by one retailer that they no longer sell the Panasonic S1R. They did, however, have one for sale second hand at a very good price. The salesman told me he did’nt know why they had stopped selling it. This made me suspicious and I decided not to buy it. Does anyone know anything more about the production of the S1R. Has production stopped and why.

Could be many different possible reasons:

1. It wasn’t selling well and the store didn’t want to carry stock and have it sit on the shelf tying up capital that could go towards stocking more in demand items
2. Panasonic ran into component shortages for parts on the S1R specifically
3. Panasonic ran into component shortages for parts on the S1 family of cameras and wanted to prioritize parts for cameras that are more profitable and/or in demand
4. Panasonic has a new model in the works and decided to stop production to conserve parts for new in-demand model rather than flood the market with soon-to-be old model
5. Store may know that Panasonic has a new model in the works and doesn’t want to stock more S1R that they’ll have trouble selling once the new model gets announced

Edited February 5, 2022 by beewee

[BernardC]

20 hours ago, IJGRAY said:

Does anyone know anything more about the production of the S1R. Has production stopped and why.

It's very likely that the camera is no longer in production. Modern cameras are made in batches. Panasonic would not build a new batch of a camera that came out 3 years ago, especially given signs that it will be replaced shortly (or at least that a 60MP sensor is being produced by the company which supplied the 47MP sensor).

None of this is unusual or suspicious. The Nikon F6 wasn't officially "discontinued" until a decade after the production line was shut-down.

Why isn't your retailer stocking the S1R? I can think of a few reasons:

• Sales are low enough that they can get one from the distributor if a customer provides a deposit.
• They don't want to be stuck with inventory that will be discounted when a replacement comes-out.
• They list the product because they are a "full line" Lumix dealer, but it's not a good match with their clientèle.
• They've slimmed-down their inventory for all products

It's probably a combination of these factors, and a few more that are market-specific.

Does it make the S1R a bad buy? Maybe, but it's not clear-cut. New cameras aren't overwhelmingly better than outgoing models anymore. You can bet that the S1R replacement will have a few more pixels, and better low-light performance, and faster AF, but only by a fraction.

[BernardC]

I see beewee gave the same reply!

[IJGRAY]

41 minutes ago, BernardC said:

It's very likely that the camera is no longer in production. Modern cameras are made in batches. Panasonic would not build a new batch of a camera that came out 3 years ago, especially given signs that it will be replaced shortly (or at least that a 60MP sensor is being produced by the company which supplied the 47MP sensor).

None of this is unusual or suspicious. The Nikon F6 wasn't officially "discontinued" until a decade after the production line was shut-down.

Why isn't your retailer stocking the S1R? I can think of a few reasons:

• Sales are low enough that they can get one from the distributor if a customer provides a deposit.
• They don't want to be stuck with inventory that will be discounted when a replacement comes-out.
• They list the product because they are a "full line" Lumix dealer, but it's not a good match with their clientèle.
• They've slimmed-down their inventory for all products

It's probably a combination of these factors, and a few more that are market-specific.

Does it make the S1R a bad buy? Maybe, but it's not clear-cut. New cameras aren't overwhelmingly better than outgoing models anymore. You can bet that the S1R replacement will have a few more pixels, and better low-light performance, and faster AF, but only by a fraction.

Thanks for that. What you said makes sense.

[IJGRAY]

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Whether it's still in production or not wouldn't and hasn't bothered me. Used, for anyone who wants a high megapixel mega camera, it's a steal such as: https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/used-equipment/used-photo-and-video/used-mirrorless-cameras/used-panasonic-mirrorless-cameras/panasonic-lumix-dc-s1r/

I bought mine used towards the end of last Summer at just 1500 euros, 'as new' (from a colleague here in France).

I don't know if it's still in production but sales must be low due to the combined factors of: size + lack of decent tracking AF for video + Panasonic's usual crap marketing.

Advertising does not equal marketing. Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Leica all make a buzz, especially on social media such as YouTube whereas Panny only seem to put out officially approved pieces and do not allow commentary. It's a stupid policy if you ask me, but what do I know...

Despite shooting themselves in the foot all day long every day with the AF issue and the lack of 21st C marketing buzz, I still prefer their product over anyone else's right now, but they are such an irritating company!

Thanks - I agree with what you say. I think a lot of customers are getting a bit to fussy when it comes to technology.

[IJGRAY]

1 hour ago, beewee said:

Could be many different possible reasons:

1. It wasn’t selling well and the store didn’t want to carry stock and have it sit on the shelf tying up capital that could go towards stocking more in demand items
2. Panasonic ran into component shortages for parts on the S1R specifically
3. Panasonic ran into component shortages for parts on the S1 family of cameras and wanted to prioritize parts for cameras that are more profitable and/or in demand
4. Panasonic has a new model in the works and decided to stop production to conserve parts for new in-demand model rather than flood the market with soon-to-be old model
5. Store may know that Panasonic has a new model in the works and doesn’t want to stock more S1R that they’ll have trouble selling once the new model gets announced

I just wondered because they are still producing the S1 and S1H.

[BernardC]

22 hours ago, IJGRAY said:

I just wondered because they are still producing the S1 and S1H.

The S1, who knows? It's been effectively replaced by the S5 as an entry-level 24MP camera, and by the S1H as a full video camera. That being said, maybe it's found its niche as the best "2nd camera" in Panasonic's lineup. The sensor is still current, given that it's used in other Panasonic products, and in the Sigma fp (not fp-l).

The S1H seems to be doing well as a professional tool. Panasonic recently released a box version (BS1H) to extend the range. The BS1H has the same video capabilities as the S1H, but it's lighter (no screen or EVF) and offers extra connectivity options for remote/drone/gimbal use.

[Simone_DF]

On 2/4/2022 at 5:28 PM, IJGRAY said:

I was told by one retailer that they no longer sell the Panasonic S1R. They did, however, have one for sale second hand at a very good price. The salesman told me he did’nt know why they had stopped selling it. This made me suspicious and I decided not to buy it. Does anyone know anything more about the production of the S1R. Has production stopped and why.

It's been marked either as "discontinued" or "back ordered" at almost all online retailers since May 2021. However, it's still a good camera and used prices are very attractive. Keep in mind we'll probably see a new Panasonic body sometime this year. The "Spring 2022" is most likely the GH6 though.

https://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/latest/photo-news/photographers-set-to-face-equipment-shortages-in-2022-159622

‘The imaging industry is currently facing a number of global challenges that are affecting all camera manufacturers and Panasonic is not immune to these. We continue to do our best to meet the demands of our customers and we are excited to show our latest updates in Spring 2022.’

[Stuart Richardson]

I have both the S1 and SL2. I think both are excellent cameras. I had the S1 first, and I bought it primarily as a video camera to replace my Sony setup. I found while I had it that I really liked it. The layout of the buttons and the grip are excellent, and it is, in my opinion, a true photographer's camera. The color is excellent, and it is the sharpest 24mp sensor I have seen. I found the stabilization to be excellent, and the video is still the best I have seen.

Meanwhile, I bought a used SL2 from a friend in 2019, as I was attracted to the higher resolution and the better ability to use my M and S lenses. The SL2 really won me over, and I no longer use the S1 or the S system very often. I think it is a really superb camera. The sensor has really appealing characteristics. It is incredibly sharp without looking unnatural, it has excellent, natural color. The interface and handling is, in typical Leica style, far better than most manufacturers. Compared to the S1, it works much better with M lenses, having fewer problems with soft edges in lenses that tend to show that problem.

I keep the S1 around as a backup and as a camera dedicated to video, as it does do that better than the SL2, but for a stills camera the SL2 has few peers. The S1R is an excellent camera with all the advantages of the S1. It has some differences from the SL2. Whether one is better than the other is more on the photographer. The SL2 is the clear winner if you are heavily integrated into the Leica world...not only is the interface the same, it does much better with the M lenses. If you use S lenses, it is again, a no-brainer, as the SL, SL2 and SL2S are the only ones that will autofocus with them. The S adapter L will stop down the lens and provide EXIF on the Panasonic or Sigma cameras, but will not autofocus.

So I would say that if the S1R is viewed alone, it is hard to argue with the price difference, given that it gives you so much for so little. But price aside, I do think the SL2 is the better overall camera.

[01maciel]

Am 5.2.2022 um 16:39 schrieb IJGRAY:

I think a lot of customers are getting a bit to fussy when it comes to technology.

Agreed. The S1R is ridiculous cheap if you can get on 'as new' from the friendly dealer of your choice. Don't forget the cashback campaign - it took me 4 month but I got a 300€ refund. It is still a cool piece of hardware and a wonderful entry into the L-mount world (that's what I need to say because I own the S1R:)). I like aged cameras like the S1R or my M10.

[Reddy]

For image quality I don't see any different since the Panasonic RAW is no different to the others. But I have chosen the heaviest of all, the S1H for handling and functionality issues. I don't need the standard 47MP yet as most of my lenses are M, R and M42 lenses. All the buttons are clearly shown and you can light the buttons up in the dark. The bigger top display with many information helps if you do old fashion waist level shooting, you can see the metering there. The flip screen is a plus for low level shooting. The sensor have extra filter for canceling moire, under enough lighting there is no different for image quality. With my new SL APO lenses the L mount system is fantastic as a hobby gear or for professional shoot. Initially I was going for SL2-S due to better low light capabilities and video capabilities, but then realized the S1H is handling better if weight is not the problem. But when the weight is my problem,  then I would use the M instead. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Reddy

[FrankX]

Am 19.1.2022 um 18:28 schrieb 01maciel:

Interesting, indeed. What about the IQ? I suspect it is the same sensor in both cameras. The crucial thing is what comes out at the end:)

 

No, the sensor of the SL2 yields significantly higher image quality with most available L-mount lenses (not only Leica‘s own lenses)! You can see the difference with your own eyes at Reid Reviews. Maybe the optimization for M lenses is also useful for L-mount lenses. Don‘t know.

[Stuart Richardson]

It has a thinner cover glass. Less glass in the image path means sharper photos. It is even more important with lenses that have a high angle of incidence of light. So if you have a 1mm coverglass, an M wide angle will have light that travels through 1mm on center but 2mm at the edge. The less glass it travels through, the better. With SLR or properly designed lenses for a sensor, it is usually not a factor, but the fact remains that the less plain glass in the optical path, the better. If the sensors are otherwise equal, the version with a thinner glass will be sharper.  So with m lenses designed for film, they can lose a lot of sharpness. A thick cover glass can mean more room for infrared and UV filtering and more protection. The M8 was a case in point…very sharp, but the IR filtering was not nearly enough. Leica has found the balance by now. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

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[tom.w.bn]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb FrankX:

No, the sensor of the SL2 yields significantly higher image quality with most available L-mount lenses (not only Leica‘s own lenses)! You can see the difference with your own eyes at Reid Reviews. Maybe the optimization for M lenses is also useful for L-mount lenses. Don‘t know.

Significantly? I don't believe this at all. There is no use posting a reference to something behind a paywall.