Is the Panasonic S1R the better Leica SL2?

[01maciel]

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When I bought a new L-mount lens for my S1R in November last year in a shop full of Leica stuff (original Leica dealer) and some other negligible brands the guy behind the counter noticed my camera on the neck strap and told me by the way a little later that he "considers the S1R as the better Leica SL2". I thought Oh my goodness... blasphemy. Anyway, could be salesman blah blah. I didn't asked why and when in this situation since I was keen to get the lens and had a bunch of questions beforehand. However, the question came up again recently and I am wondering whether the salesman was right. Has someone used both cameras, the S1R and the SL2 and could compare them? What are the differences except the logo and firmware?

[douglas ball]

Well you asked. I had the original SL which I loved. I bought the S1-R when it came out. Then I traded the SL for a second S1-R. This is why.

1. Ergonomics. In my opinion the grip is far superior. The extended lip on the top of the grip helps you support a heavy lens more efficiently. I am an industrial designer and care about these little things. The Leica M, on the other hand, while smaller and lighter, is more awkward to hold. Without a grip, or thumbs up, you must squeeze the body to maintain your grasp of it. The SL2 is better than  an M, but the S1-R is the best of the three. 

2. While there are more buttons, they serve a purpose. I have it set up so that I seldom go into the menu system. I can quickly see at a glance how the camera is set. Most change of settings can be seen through the viewfinder. Learning the menu may take more effort, but the time spent is worth it.

3. The electronics tend to just work very well, unlike the FOTOS app with Leica which may, or may not work. Remember that electronics are a strong suit of Panasonic and our cameras are way more electronic these days.

4. Electronic flash works, giving me full access to Godox products. Leica has their own protocol, which is flakey at best. The Leica flash units are way overpriced and less effective. As a company Leica prefers that you buy their fast lenses instead.

5. The tilting rear screen. I use this most every day. Going back to a camera without this feature would be frustrating. I would not do it.

6. Manual focusing display, (in the viewfinder) allows me to fine tune the focus quickly. It reads as a simple bar, where you place one end on Infinity and the other, depending on aperture settings, shows the depth of field. This information was on the SL. (on the top display) but it worked differently, was more difficult to understand. 

7. The camera is less expensive, meaning it is less precious. I don't worry about knocks or scratches. I just use it. 

8. Best of all it takes L mount lenses, which represent the strong suit of Leica in my opinion.

9. The battery life is excellent. Again, with a larger grip, they can accommodate the size of battery they need.

10. Here is my main negative on the S1-R.  As an industrial designer I much prefer the looks of the SL2. I rationalize all this by reminding myself that a camera is meant to be  used, and not simply an object to be looked at. I have felt, on occasion, that the industrial designers of Leica, might wield more influence on the final design than they should. Here is an example. My wife drives an Audi. I have a Mini Cooper. The heating and AC controls on her car drives me nuts. Since I am an occasional driver, I have not learned the controls well enough to find quickly the defrost control nor the fan speed adjustments. The designers goal was to visually make all this fade into the background, as if it need not exist. It simply becomes too clean and therefore not up to the task it is intended for. With the Mini there is not learning time required. You glance down, see a couple of rotating knobs, and you intuitively know what to do. All this is made possible regardless of the interior lighting level.  Some times  things need to be visible. 

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[LocalHero1953]

Interesting! I haven't tried a S1R, so I cannot compare it with my SL2-S. I do have a Sigma fp, so I am not unreasonably favourable towards Leica. 

1. I carry the SL2-S with a handstrap, and the grip is not a design aspect I have problems with. (Nor is the grip on the M).

2. I prefer the Leica icon-based touchscreen quick-start menu to buttons of any type.

3. I don't need FOTOS with the SL2-S, so again this is just not an issue for me. (I would like to use it with the CL, but FOTOS is crap, so I can't!)

4. I don't use TTL, because I use multiple off-camera flash. So I just use Godox anyway. I have used Leica flashes and I agree they are overpriced and poor to use.

5. One area where I agree with you. A nice to have, though I would rather have it on my CL than SL.

6. I rarely use manual focus.

7. Yes, the SL2-S is expensive, but I don't baby it. I feel like I could knock nails in with it. I'm more worried about the things I hit with it than the risk of damage to the camera.

8. Agreed (so does the Sigma fp!)

I'm not really disagreeing with anything you wrote, just showing that everyone has different ways of holding and using cameras.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[01maciel]

Interesting, indeed. What about the IQ? I suspect it is the same sensor in both cameras. The crucial thing is what comes out at the end:)

 

[SrMi]

10 hours ago, 01maciel said:

Interesting, indeed. What about the IQ? I suspect it is the same sensor in both cameras. The crucial thing is what comes out at the end:)

 

Maybe the same sensor but certainly different toppings and firmware. M lenses work better with SL2.
Sean Reid has made some comparisons between SL2, SL, and S1R (reidreviews.com). I got my S1R before SL2 was launched and sold it once I noticed I was using only SL2. Nonetheless, S1R is an excellent camera.

 

[jrp]

The S1R is a fine camera (although it may have been discontinued?).  They included more bells and whistles than Leica did for the SL2.  Yo pays your money ...

[aksclix]

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On 1/19/2022 at 8:39 AM, douglas ball said:

9. The battery life is excellent.

Really? The battery sucks in my s1r. I have 2 batteries and while I haven’t tested it to full capacity, it drains rather quickly for me.. 

SL2 is probably a bit better but still not good enough with battery longevity

overall an interesting take on the comparison.. 

I like the ergonomic grip too BUT it is pretty heavy and I couldn’t handhold it for very long..

I like the menu although it’s not minimalistic.. with touch screen navigation, it isn’t too bad.. I like the simplicity of Leica SL2 though.. I have quick access to whatever I need to change..

I have the S1R despite having the SL2 for these reasons..

- focus stacking in camera.. I’d love to have my family shots with background and foreground all in focus! 
- I can do macro shots with focus stacking in camera once again! 
- tilt screen

- it’s no slouch.. identical evf and lcd are really awesome! 

that’s it I guess.. if SL2 had these I may not have the S1R.. i like the overall experience of shooting the SL2 over the S1R

as far as IQ is concerned.. I have no complaints about it on the SL2 except the noise levels creeping in at 3200 as well but I have the Topaz DeNoise and I am super happy with it.. happy shooting at 12800 or even 25600 now 😌 The S1R doesn’t disappoint either.. pretty comparable IQ but I don’t use it as often as I use the SL2

Edited January 22, 2022 by aksclix

[michali]

I bought the S1R, returned it after 3 months & went back to my SL, which I then traded on an SL2.

In a nutshell, the S1R is a great camera, but for my use & liking it has far too many buttons & too many superfluous unnecessary functions. I also wasn't entirely happy with the image output. I once mentioned that I found the images a "little clinical" & got flamed on here for daring to say that.....🙄

I rated my experience with the S1R not too dissimilar to my experience with the Sony A7 series, much like shooting with a computer.

I've now added the SL2-S alongside the SL2 and speaking personally, from an ergonomics & IQ perspective I rate them as the best digital cameras I've used.

 

[jdlaing]

Better? No.

Different? Yes.

[steveBK]

S1R is the value play in the L mount lineup

Get 95% of an SL2 for 30% of the price

[Archiver]

I'd be interested in a SL2-S vs Panasonic S5 comparison in terms of image quality and autofocus. The S5 continues to impress me with its image quality, although the lures of the fully alloy body and controls are strong. If the S5 has the same quality and autofocus capabilities as the SL2-S, there's no real need for me to spend that money.

[aksclix]

51 minutes ago, Archiver said:

I'd be interested in a SL2-S vs Panasonic S5 comparison in terms of image quality and autofocus. The S5 continues to impress me with its image quality, although the lures of the fully alloy body and controls are strong. If the S5 has the same quality and autofocus capabilities as the SL2-S, there's no real need for me to spend that money.

It should be similar to the SL2 vs S1R I guess? I had the S5 briefly but returned it as I decided to keep my S1R to shoot wit APSc.. I liked the S5’s size very much and the ergonomics were still very good! 

[ravinj]

On 1/19/2022 at 8:28 AM, 01maciel said:

When I bought a new L-mount lens for my S1R in November last year in a shop full of Leica stuff (original Leica dealer) and some other negligible brands the guy behind the counter noticed my camera on the neck strap and told me by the way a little later that he "considers the S1R as the better Leica SL2". I thought Oh my goodness... blasphemy. Anyway, could be salesman blah blah. I didn't asked why and when in this situation since I was keen to get the lens and had a bunch of questions beforehand. However, the question came up again recently and I am wondering whether the salesman was right. Has someone used both cameras, the S1R and the SL2 and could compare them? What are the differences except the logo and firmware?

Compared to the S1R:

SL2 works better with some of the SL Primes, esp. SL 28. It obviously works better with most of the M lenses below 50MM. For those like me, who also own the Q2, sharing same battery with the SL2 is a big deal.   

IMHO, the reason to buy L mount are the SL primes and if you have SL primes then SL2 is the best choice.

Edited January 24, 2022 by ravinj

[Ivar B]

I own the S1R and am happy with it. Better than the SL2? No, I don`t think so. I know someone who actually uses both the S1R and the SL2, and report that in practice there is very little difference among the two. The exception is, like others have pointed out also, that the sensor in SL2 is better with Leica M lenses. Apparently, Leica L lenses do also perform marginally better on the SL2 than the S1R, but one is hard pressed to see any practical difference. All the buttons on the S1R is an irritation for some, but I have no problems with it.

Like it was pointed out above also, the S1R performance is very close to the SL2; at a much lower price. This is what it is about, I guess.

[Paul2660]

To me, each body has it's own advantages. 

It's clear both are using the same sensor, not sure on cover glass.  

SL2, Love the design, and look and feel of the body.  Menu system once you get used it it is very straight forward and easy to use in the field. LR/ACR only offer Adobe default dng color profiles (IMO a huge disadvantage) and I have no real desire to attempt to create a series of profiles.  I would prefer to browse as you can in C1 and pick a similar camera to start with.  The default adobe profiles are pretty poor.  However this is true for any camera that creates raw as dng (with adobe). 

The lack of focus stacking in camera is a huge oversight and should be something Lecia adds with firmware.  I can't see any reason that they can't have it and it's pretty standard with all AF cameras.  Lack of ability to combine the self timer with exposure bracketing is another strange issue.  Leica makes the self time a actual exposure mode, not a feature that can be used with all various exposure modes.  Intervalometer feature IMO is not laid out like most standard intervalometers.  

EVF is excellent and LCD only lacks ability to tilt.  May see that in next camera. 

Remote port is a old style microphone jack, that literally no one else uses anymore (all others using a microphone jack use the smaller micro plug style).  This makes using 3rd party remotes difficult as you have to find an adapter to take the camera port down to a micro size that also has the correct internal layout.  They are available.  

Only IBIS works, with a non Leica lens (no reason for this if there is a true L alliance).  

Battery life is not good, and battery cost is excessive $285.00 per battery?  And they are rarely in stock. 

Manual focus is excellent and doesn't cut out the outside of the frame

Getting to various shooting modes, i.e. exposure bracketing, multishot, single shot, high speed continuous etc. is the easiest I have found by way of the Leica menu 

SL2 is limited to only SD slots thus can't take the much faster CF Express cards. 

S1R, 

Bigger, and heavier body, much more hands on design with all the buttons.  Menu system is a older looking font and not as straight forward as the Lecia setup.  Getting to shooting modes like bracketing or multshot is less straight forward as on the SL2, and requires several menu clicks to get to them. 

Tilting LCD is a plus, as for my shooting style it just makes setting up low or off angle shots so much easier

Battery life IMO is about as bad as SL2, at least on the 3 I have

Manual focus is not as straight forward, as the Panasonic has a frame about the outside of the image displayed on both EVF and LCD which prevents you from getting to the very edge of any scene to check your focus. 

Playback is also strangely limited to 8x as if you go to 16x image is too blurry to really check your focus.  True only on normal 47MP images, on MS you can use the 16x. 

AC/LR have dedicated profiles for the S1R, (camera matching)

S1R takes CF Express, huge deal for me due to much faster write speeds. 

S1R takes a micro port for remote so any 3rd party intervalometer or remote will work. 

it does seem that the S1R is either discontinued or at least is in very limited production.  Only found 1 US vendor that had them in stock.  They do show up often used on various sites and could be a great backup.  Panasonic has been very quiet about the S1R future, with most of their focus on the S1H (and IMO the SL2-S is a better camera and the price gap is closer than S1R and SL2). 

Both cameras take excellent images and offer great features.  They are using what I feel is 1 generation back CMOS chip, in that the DR in shadows just is not the same as with a Sony Sensor in the same size range.  With use of DxO's Pure raw I have found that this issue can be vastly improved.  

 

Paul C 

[aksclix]

3 hours ago, Paul2660 said:

The lack of focus stacking in camera is a huge oversight and should be something Lecia adds with firmware.  I can't see any reason that they can't have it and it's pretty standard with all AF cameras.

Focus stacking “in camera” is only available in Panasonic and Olympus cameras AFAIK.. Nikon Z full frame has a focus shifting tech but it’s not the same.. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by aksclix

[Paul2660]

Don’t forget Fuji. It’s available in all of the GFX line up and most the X-T and the XH line.   
The focus shift with the Nikon z series is the same thing  camera takes a series of images to be blended into one final image later with stacking software  

I am not wanting the camera to output the stacked image which the Panasonic can do in a jpg  I want the stacked raw  which Fuji Nikon and Panasonic will do  and Phase one will also with the XF body  

Paul 
 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Paul2660

[aksclix]

57 minutes ago, Paul2660 said:

Don’t forget Fuji. It’s available in all of the GFX line up and most the X-T and the XH line.   
The focus shift with the Nikon z series is the same thing  camera takes a series of images to be blended into one final image later with stacking software  

I am not wanting the camera to output the stacked image which the Panasonic can do in a jpg  I want the stacked raw  which Fuji Nikon and Panasonic will do  and Phase one will also with the XF body  

Paul 
 

 

So you’re referring to focus bracketing? In camera stacking is only offered by Panasonic and Olympus unless it’s not available on Fuji.. I have the gfx 100s and there is no stacking in camera.. stacking outside in a software is possible with almost all cameras I believe..

[Paul2660]

I call it the same thing. Net I want the camera to take a series of images from the nearest focus point to infinity. Call it stacking call or bracketing.  etc. 

The Fuji GFX 100 does this. I use it all the time. So does Nikon and Panasonic. I then use software to manually stack the images into one shot. Giving the full range of focus. 
 

Panasonic will do the combination in camera if you want but I do not prefer this. 
 

I just wanted Leica to offer the same ability. With  the SL2  you would have to manually shoot and then change the focus each time as the process is not automated and thus not as precise  

Paul

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Paul2660

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[MrSMW]

On 1/23/2022 at 3:16 AM, steveBK said:

S1R is the value play in the L mount lineup

Get 95% of an SL2 for 30% of the price

Some might say 110% of an SL2 for 30% of the price...including that extra 10% in size & weight 😀

For me, testing the original SL vs the S1R, hands down the S1R.

Against the SL2, aesthetically and sheer 'want it factor', the SL2 without question.

As a work tool, purchased mint used for 1500 euros, a no-brainer, - I went S1R and it's superb.

Except the on/off switch is in the wrong place...