Why I will not be getting a M11...

[otto.f]

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46 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

My problem is personal

It's all personal. 'True value' of a Leica does not exist. There's only a value by narrative and vice versa, the narrative feeds the Leica value and the value of Leica feeds the narrative. So it can only be (inter)subjective, like the 'true value' of a painting, at least for the part that it's much more expensive than every other camera with comparable specs

Edited January 21, 2022 by otto.f

[tom0511]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Artin:

I can not think of one single thing that any of the previous Digital M bodies did better than the M11, If someone can point it out I am all ears.

 

• One guy at a paid review site says that M10r up to ISO 6400 is slightly cleaner than M11 and M11 downsampled to 40MP (I think the difference up to 6400 is irrelevant)
• M10r doesnt have the klick when you switch it on
• M10r has slightly nicer shutter sound (for me both are fine)
• M10r as of today has better whitebalance IMO (auto as well as presets) - I think this will be fixed with FW and improved profiles for the converters
• I have not yet made up my mind, but I have a feeling that corner performance the M10r is very good

Saying all this I think the M11 overall is a great camera and I might get one;

 

[MikeMyers]

2 hours ago, M9reno said:

It sounds to me like you are an obvious client for an M10-D.  No touch screen.  And an articulated screen exists for it via the optional EVF or the Fotos app.

I apologize.  I didn't write this very clearly.  The screen is very handy for me in many ways, but the TOUCH stuff is what I want to avoid

First of all, I'm 78 now, so my eyes aren't as good as when I was young.  Second, I had cataracts in both eyes, now corrected.  I see find at distance, but need glasses to see closer.  I got a set of progressive glasses, which allow me to see from "reading distance" to "distant", but with the camera screen just a few inches from my eye, it's blurry, unless I move the camera further away from me.  Same problem on my Fuji, which I use for video, so my friends at Aravind Eye Hospital made me a set of progressive glasses that work from my normal camera holding distance, to infinity.  That solved the problem, and they make reading and using the Leica menus effortless.  

I guess I'm just old fashioned - I prefer the old "menu" system to touch screens.  Maybe all the rest of you love that capability.

I'm not too excited about the thought of using an M10-D, although if I could buy one for a reasonable price, I've always been fascinated by it.  I also like my Nikon F4, which has mechanical controls for every function on the camera.  

I don't know what you mean by an "optional EVF or the Fotos app".  I have the Visoflex, but I can't picture using it with the camera held way over my head, or sitting on the ground.

[M9reno]

3 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

I don't know what you mean by an "optional EVF or the Fotos app".  I have the Visoflex, but I can't picture using it with the camera held way over my head, or sitting on the ground.

I had realised after I posted that you had not objected to screens generally, just touch screens, so my apologies, since you were very clear indeed.

By using the Fotos app you can control the camera remotely, and this includes using your phone screen as the camera screen.  That means you can put the camera and phone/screen as low or as high as you like while viewing and having the ability to shoot.  But this requires using a smart phone app, and two devices at once, which may be more than you want.

[MikeMyers]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Umm.. why is a touch screen non Leica when nearly all Leicas have it and an articulating screen Leica when no M, S  or L series Leica has it ?

None of MY Leica cameras have a touch screen - I don't think any of my cameras do.  I don't know about Leica cameras that I don't have or use, and you're probably right, but that's something I do not want.  

Articulating screen - it's something I would like to have.  It's invaluable on my D750.  I have no idea if Leica will ever offer this.  

[MikeMyers]

2 hours ago, M9reno said:

Fair enough, but if one of the selling points of these high-res cameras is the option to crop, perspective control is an obvious purpose.

Glad you used the word "IF".  None of that is/are selling points on a camera for me - more so, the opposite.  All I want my cameras to provide is a high-quality, untouched, raw image of the scene that was captured.

(If lots of people do want these things, then it's a good selling point, and Leica did well in providing those capabilities.)

[Tailwagger]

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4 hours ago, otto.f said:

At least 60% I guess of the photo's we make with digital M's could have been made with an iPhone, if you see how these pictures are used,  presented or archived.

I don't entirely disagree... though frankly I've never had a single true keeper from my phone... but this matters because?  Do you have to be Bach to own a pipe organ, May's to possess a fine leather baseball glove, Rodin to have a set of razor sharp chisels? I could be wrong, but the odds of anyone here being on permanent exhibit at the Louvre a century from now is relatively slim.  For most of us, 90% of the photos we take shouldn't have been made at all, M, iPhone or otherwise. I know my hit rate doesn't come close to 4 out of 10. 

So what's the standard for peaceable passage through Saint Bresson's gate into the kingdom?  At the moment $9k,  $10,555 if you throw in an extra battery, V2 and MA sales tax.  Anyone looking for bargains in this space needs to turn around and seek nirvana elsewhere for sure. In my case, for better or worse, my interactions with Ms over the years have turned me into a passable photographer.  As a former daily problem solver/creator now in retirement, I can state categorically with zero hesitation that I'd be in a mental ward by now if it weren't for the relationship I've built with photography over the years, one almost entirely fostered over the past decade as a result of M ownership. I'm sure for some an iPhone might be capable of exactly the same thing. Regardless, I've come to see blowing money on an M or another lens every few years as being far more productive than paying a therapist.

Yes, you can approach all this by declaring the M is an inanimate object, a tool and damn expensive one at that. It can be measured, weighed, argued over and be technically obsolete by the time all the furor dies down. One can make a rational decision about ownership taking into consideration just how much cat food will need to be consumed to make up the needed investment.  But I genuinely feel sorry for those whose calculations cease there. Good photography is the product of passion.  I suspect we can at least find agreement in that there are few cameras more capable of engendering it than an M. 

You will never truly understand whether or not the M11 is worthwhile or not, unless you take into the field, shoot something you actually care about, pull up the files and either recoil in horror, say meh or think, man I'm so damn glad I tried this thing.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

None of MY Leica cameras have a touch screen - I don't think any of my cameras do.  I don't know about Leica cameras that I don't have or use, and you're probably right, but that's something I do not want.  

Articulating screen - it's something I would like to have.  It's invaluable on my D750.  I have no idea if Leica will ever offer this.  

Almost certainly not on an M 

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Hmm, for me, that's something I may or may not do on my computer, but would never want to do on my camera.  All I want my camera to do is capture what it sees.  If I had a choice, I would prefer my camera not have tools like that - it's like my Nikon Df, that has a small image editor built in, which I've never used.  All I want is a good raw file, as accurate as possible to what the camera saw.

Have you tried it?
Perspective control stores angles in the raw file to be used in post if needed. It also helps with precise framing as it shows the borders of a perspective corrected image in LV. The raw file is the same, it just carries a bit more data in the EXIF.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

None of MY Leica cameras have a touch screen - I don't think any of my cameras do.  I don't know about Leica cameras that I don't have or use, and you're probably right, but that's something I do not want.  

Articulating screen - it's something I would like to have.  It's invaluable on my D750.  I have no idea if Leica will ever offer this.  

If there is a choice, I prefer tilting EVF to articulating rear screen.

[otto.f]

34 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Good photography is the product of passion.  I suspect we can at least find agreement in that there are few cameras more capable of engendering it than an M. 

 

I totally agree. And I was not trying to maneuver you in a defensive position or to an apology for your acquisition. I'm just contemplating the Leica phenomenon, finding it too easy btw to put it aside as decadence. 'The Thing itself' does not exist, as Kant said, and this has a lot to do with his fellow countrymen at Leica bringing out the Monochrome. It's images are sharper, in itself, ok. But hanging a Monochrome on your neck brings you consciously but not in the least unconsciously in a state of seeing B&W themes, situations and photographs. And if a different M brings you to seeing the world from a new perspective, that's a big profit. That's why the clichée "does it make me a better photographer?..No!" is complete nonsense, probably invented by teachers at photography schools to push their students to squeeze out their talent, or leave the school . It's only with a tool that you can see what you can create with that tool.

[Ba Erv]

I’m gonna bail for now…I’ll revisit the acquisition in 6 months.  Far too many anecdotal reports of issues for a premium camera.  When I add my own experiences with Leica support in NJ of late the easy answer is “NOPE!”.

[Tailwagger]

4 minutes ago, otto.f said:

And if a different M brings you to seeing the world from a new perspective, that's a big profit. That's why the clichée "does it make me a better photographer?..No!" is complete nonsense, probably invented by teachers at photography schools to push their students to squeeze out their talent, or leave the school . It's only with a tool that you can see what you can create with that tool.

Having come to the arts via music, I'd observe that indeed having a top notch instrument won't make you a better player, though it help might facilitate better playing. But, assuming you are capable of it, an instrument that enables you to explore the finer details of expression encourages you to move in that direction, challenging you to interpret the music in ways that a lesser one might never have suggested. These are subtleties, no doubt, that most might never notice, but the player comes to depend on and grow, consciously or otherwise, as a result. And as they do, the sounds they produce becomes more sophisticated and compelling. They become bolder in their interpretations, some times successfully, sometime not. So while it cannot teach to you play, it can expose and encourage you around the finer points of how to do it well. 

This is how I see the M system and a failing that I find with most other digital cameras. I recall very early on with the 240, taking a shot in an empty parking garage as there was just something about the geometry of the columns and quality of the light that struck me.  And while it was nothing special, I can still vividly recall thinking when I opened the file, damn this camera is magic. It can take an utterly boring scene, one that thousands ignore every single day and yet find a way to make an interesting comment on it. The more I explored the tonalities and colorations it was capable of, the more encouraged I was to continue to simply photograph things that happened to catch my interest, even if only slightly in the hope that my companion could amplify those qualities that attracted me to it.  Over the course of the years, as a result of that partnering, I'd genuinely believe, as do those who've witnessed the progression, that my work has improved immeasurably. But, perhaps I am an outlier here, as I'm generally not into reportage. For me there is a very bright line between photographing what I see as opposed to what I wish to express about it. The M was the first camera system that managed to elevate that thought as a conscious way of approaching the art of image making, something for which I am very grateful.

Now of course, the M hasn't attached electrodes on my head, zapped me senseless and made me a better photographer.  And there's far more to photography than the camera and lens;  working hard at processing and printing have had an equally profound effect as well. But the excitement and desire to shoot and explore the M in the context of those other disciplines certainly has helped to propel me forward, despite all the agony involved in the struggle to find the next decent image.  So yes, any camera is a tool, a manufactured item built for profit. So is every one of the musical instruments I own. But just as with them, one can develop a personal relationship with them that encourages and helps shapes things in both expected and unexpected ways.  The M11, for me, offers yet another set of variations on this same theme, which no matter how subtle some may find them to be, wind up being crucial for my personal journey in this space.  

[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Now there's the M11, which can use even higher ISO, create even more detailed files, and has what seems to be a smoother interface, and for the first time, could be controlled by touching the smart screen on the back of the camera.

 

 

Touch screen was implemented on the M10-P, then the M10 Monochrom and M10-R.  The M11 touch screen further implemented the quick menu interface, similar to the SL2.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Touch screen was implemented on the M10-P, then the M10 Monochrom and M10-R.  The M11 touch screen further implemented the quick menu interface, similar to the SL2.

Added much later - I know nothing about those other Leica cameras, and it shouldn't matter to anyone here whether I would buy an M11 or not.  I am completely satisfied with my M10.  For me, editing is done on my computer, when I get home, and settings are done by selecting choices on the menu, like previous Leica M cameras.

Leica figures people will like all that new stuff, but I'm satisfied with what I've already got.  To get all the stuff I don't need, and to get features I don't want, and to also spend nine thousand dollars.....    It's the reason why my Fuji X100f is the last camera of that series that I will buy.  

I don't want to discourage anyone else.  As per the title of this thread, I guess that's my answers, at least for now.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 1/22/2022 at 3:49 AM, Jeff S said:

Touch screen was implemented on the M10-P, then the M10 Monochrom and M10-R.  The M11 touch screen further implemented the quick menu interface, similar to the SL2.

Jeff

The info screen on the M10M and R (I don't have a P) is also touch enabled to change some of the settings. The M11 is more of an evolution in that regard.

Gordon

[Jeff S]

2 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

The info screen on the M10M and R (I don't have a P) is also touch enabled to change some of the settings. The M11 is more of an evolution in that regard.

Gordon

I thought that’s what I wrote, Gordon. But if not, that was the intent. I have both the M10M and R.

Jeff

[paulsydaus]

On 1/14/2022 at 1:56 AM, elmars said:

Curtain metering will not come back. There is no measuring cell in the body anymore. We have to live with this.

Startup-/wakeup-time is about one second. That is 1/2 second shorter than the M10 but still too long. The bigger battery helps. If You forbid the camera to go to sleep there is no wakeup. The battery power is good enough for that.

The shutter opening sound at startup is dirturbing in the beginning. But You get used to. I now see it as an advantage: You can hear when the camera is ready to shoot. But despite this I would rather have it not. Again: We have to live with it. Removing it requires a new shutter.

The reaction time of the shutter is as good as the one of the M10. Leica worked hard on this and speeded many things up. Much was software work they said. Jono Slack and Sean Reid tried to measure and confirmed Leicas statement. It corresponds to my personal feeling out of a direct comparison with the M10.

So You will not miss any shoot because of the speed of the camera. But I can´t help if You don´t like the sound. I only can say: I love the sound of the M10 more but I got used to the one of the M11 fast.

Why will light curtain meeting not come back?  If enough people are vocal about wanting it, then it would be extremely silly of Leica to ignore that.

Secondly, RDF measured the response time of the shutter and it is slower than the M10.  Not by much but it is slow.  This is the wrong direction for Leica to be taking the M.  I personally do not want or need fancy meeting modes on a rangefinder camera.  I want the camera to operate as fast as a mechanical film camera and sound like a mechanical film camera.  But be digital.  I agree with the issues the OP is expressing.

[SrMi]

49 minutes ago, paulsydaus said:

Why will light curtain meeting not come back?  If enough people are vocal about wanting it, then it would be extremely silly of Leica to ignore that.

Secondly, RDF measured the response time of the shutter and it is slower than the M10.  Not by much but it is slow.  This is the wrong direction for Leica to be taking the M.  I personally do not want or need fancy meeting modes on a rangefinder camera.  I want the camera to operate as fast as a mechanical film camera and sound like a mechanical film camera.  But be digital.  I agree with the issues the OP is expressing.

The slow down of the shutter has been measured. However, nobody has been able to notice it in practice. The slow down is not a tendency, but a consequence of an improved system (more measuring options, better image quality, quicker switching to LV, better compatibility with vintage lenses).

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[Jacobjuul]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

The slow down of the shutter has been measured. However, nobody has been able to notice it in practice. The slow down is not a tendency, but a consequence of an improved system (more measuring options, better image quality, quicker switching to LV, better compatibility with vintage lenses).

Still the feeling is not the same. Especially the shutter coming back up to the open position after the exposure feels like a mirrorless camera.