Comparisons of M11 and M10R

[M11 for me]

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb JFCstudio:

The 11 makes me smile. Because I am going to save a lot of money. But who knows, may be with a few firmware they will be able at leica to get the color right, By right I mean, not cheap and vulgar. The R is far from being done. Same for the 10. 

This is evidently to individual taste. But what I am concerned I believe that the 11 renders much better than the 10. Its more what I see. Plus many pictures taken with M11 need much less post processing under the condition that they are correctly exposed. So in total for me the M11 is a good step forward compared to M10. So fir me your statement is not easy to understand.

[charlesphoto99]

13 hours ago, JFCstudio said:

The 11 makes me smile. Because I am going to save a lot of money. But who knows, may be with a few firmware they will be able at leica to get the color right, By right I mean, not cheap and vulgar. The R is far from being done. Same for the 10. 

I agree. But of course, if I just spent upwards of $10K for a new camera body I would also say it has the 'best' color even if it obviously doesn't....

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[SrMi]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I agree. But of course, if I just spent upwards of $10K for a new camera body I would also say it has the 'best' color even if it obviously doesn't....

I would never claim that my camera is best in something, regardless if I spent $600.- or $35,000.-. The best thing that I can say about a camera that I own is that I like it.

I really like the M11 😁.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

The M11 has the best color of any Leica camera for me, that was the biggest surprise. It’s the first leica camera that i feel happy with the colors without the need to do any major adjustments on Lightroom or add filters.

My workflow:

Shoot with manual white balance set to daytime (I shoot film, so I prefer to shoot my digital cameras in the same/similar settings to film)

Import to Lightroom —> Set it to adobe standard profile —> retouch highlights / shadows —> export as jpg 

I'm considering UniWB instead of defaults WB presets or auto WB:

1. Most M11 pictures I have seen so far, including big wall prints in the Leica store, have a magenta cast. That could be a reason to to rely on AutoWB? Now caveat I was looking at the sky last afternoon and my initial reaction was also "there is a magenta cast" so something may be wrong with my eyes, not the camera 🙂

2. M11 histogram doesn't show RGB channels and clipping (e.g. the classic red roses saturation problem - +2 stops blown color while overall histogram still looks to be within bounds). UniWB allows for at least 1 stop gain in conservative ETTR in many cases

3. When I really care about precision I would rather use a light meter (love my lu.mu), gray card, or color checker ...

4. I never use JPEGs (... which are ruined by UniWB's green cast)

5. I find focusing easier in BW most of the time and will set camera to BW accordingly, again avoiding a potential downside of relying on UniWB colors while reviewing images on the screen or using EVF

I will report back once my silver M11 arrives (seems like blacks are more readily available currently in the US) and will experiment to confirm and quantify the gain in exposure headroom over auto WB.

[tom0511]

vor einer Stunde schrieb mzbe:

I'm considering UniWB instead of defaults WB presets or auto WB:

1. Most M11 pictures I have seen so far, including big wall prints in the Leica store, have a magenta cast. That could be a reason to to rely on AutoWB? Now caveat I was looking at the sky last afternoon and my initial reaction was also "there is a magenta cast" so something may be wrong with my eyes, not the camera 🙂

2. M11 histogram doesn't show RGB channels and clipping (e.g. the classic red roses saturation problem - +2 stops blown color while overall histogram still looks to be within bounds). UniWB allows for at least 1 stop gain in conservative ETTR in many cases

3. When I really care about precision I would rather use a light meter (love my lu.mu), gray card, or color checker ...

4. I never use JPEGs (... which are ruined by UniWB's green cast)

5. I find focusing easier in BW most of the time and will set camera to BW accordingly, again avoiding a potential downside of relying on UniWB colors while reviewing images on the screen or using EVF

I will report back once my silver M11 arrives (seems like blacks are more readily available currently in the US) and will experiment to confirm and quantify the gain in exposure headroom over auto WB.

If you plan to focus in b&w - which means you focus through EVF - why do you want to buy a rangefinder?

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

If you plan to focus in b&w - which means you focus through EVF - why do you want to buy a rangefinder?

 

Rangefinder = a direct view of reality -- that's a given, didn't call it out specifically. Honestly I am surprised to see the passion on this forum when it comes to equating rangefinder and overall Leica M experience. For me the rangefinder is the fourth most important reason why I am shooting M (in preference of all other cameras):

1. I love the quality of results from the system (-> ruling out M43 which I used in the past extensively, but now I am spoiled by Leica)

2. I cannot carry heavy items. I.e. anything heavier than a Leica would stay at home by default

3. I like Leica glass - performance per weight ratio; M lenses don't work as well on other cameras (Leica SL, Sony, Nikon, ...) compared to "native M"

4. Rangefinder is a fun part of the experience whenever applicable (i.e. not so much with the 21mm ..). So is the back display. So is the EVF.

[tom0511]

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yes, I understand all these positive points to use a rangefinder and agree. I just did not understand that you said you focus in b&w, and if you do focus in b&w means you use the elf instead of the optical rangefinder (which is obviously not b&W)

[Adam Bonn]

FWIW I think uniwb is certainly worth a try… there’s a recommendation in the lumariver manual that “most” cameras exposure is geared around the tone curve of the sooc jpeg (not a crazy idea when you consider that most histograms are the sooc jpeg)

obviously with uniwb one will need to apply wb adjustments to every DNG… not the end of the world… you might wanna make sure there’s something white in the shot under mixed artificial lighting though!

Don’t own an m11… but all this talk of colour casts maybe Leica will release a FW update to resolve it (wouldn’t be the first or even the second time)

LR users… there is a shadow tint slider (and also a split toning tool) 🙂

Interested to know if the cobalt profiles resolve it?

IIRC….. most Leica Ms start life being heralded as the best colour M ever, then the honeymoon wears off and people start talking about the M9 😂 

[Fedro]

10 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

FWIW I think uniwb is certainly worth a try… there’s a recommendation in the lumariver manual that “most” cameras exposure is geared around the tone curve of the sooc jpeg (not a crazy idea when you consider that most histograms are the sooc jpeg)

obviously with uniwb one will need to apply wb adjustments to every DNG… not the end of the world… you might wanna make sure there’s something white in the shot under mixed artificial lighting though!

Don’t own an m11… but all this talk of colour casts maybe Leica will release a FW update to resolve it (wouldn’t be the first or even the second time)

LR users… there is a shadow tint slider (and also a split toning tool) 🙂

Interested to know if the cobalt profiles resolve it?

IIRC….. most Leica Ms start life being heralded as the best colour M ever, then the honeymoon wears off and people start talking about the M9 😂 

indeed, nicely put. The colours are better than predecessor and AWB is better - even if i dont use it much

Still room for improvement - to my unprofessional eye at least - indoors and under artificial light

[Adam Bonn]

17 minutes ago, Fedro said:

indeed, nicely put. The colours are better than predecessor and AWB is better - even if i dont use it much

Still room for improvement - to my unprofessional eye at least - indoors and under artificial light

Thank you.

AWB used Indoor and under artificial light is always, and I believe the Americans say it best, a bit of a crapshoot

A whibal card (or similar) is a cheap (but don’t buy a really cheap one!) and effective fix here for any camera, but a napkin or piece of white paper or a white hanky will get you in the ballpark

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

 

IIRC….. most Leica Ms start life being heralded as the best colour M ever, then the honeymoon wears off and people start talking about the M9 😂 

Actually the M9 was initially blasted for its colors, in addition cracked sensors, red edge issues, buffer issues, card compatibility issues, etc.  

Only later do users come around (and smart ones figure out that things like colors, contrast, etc are user adjustable).  Sometimes Leica helps out the ones who haven't figured things out, for example when they changed the default tone curve for the M10 Monochrom after folks complained about flat rendering output (no surprise with high dynamic range).

How soon we forget.

Jeff

[shirubadanieru]

10 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Actually the M9 was initially blasted for its colors, in addition cracked sensors, red edge issues, buffer issues, card compatibility issues, etc.  

Only later do users come around (and smart ones figure out that things like colors, contrast, etc are user adjustable).  Sometimes Leica helps out the ones who haven't figured things out, for example when they changed the default tone curve for the M10 Monochrom after folks complained about flat rendering output (no surprise with high dynamic range).

How soon we forget.

Jeff

I forget about the original M9 announcement but the fact is that I always loved its colors BUT would always edit them with a preset to get it closer to film (mastin labs etc). With this I'd get to my desired results.

With the M10/240 presets or not the files always looked 'too digital' for me without any magic. 

M11 is the first M (and digital camera) I've used that I am happy with the output without the need to use presets or do heavy editing. This was something unexpected to me because while I felt the MM could get close to the magic of B&W film, I'd never been happy with digital color VS color film.

[Jeff S]

2 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

I forget about the original M9 announcement but the fact is that I always loved its colors BUT would always edit them with a preset to get it closer to film (mastin labs etc). With this I'd get to my desired results.

With the M10/240 presets or not the files always looked 'too digital' for me without any magic. 

M11 is the first M (and digital camera) I've used that I am happy with the output without the need to use presets or do heavy editing. This was something unexpected to me because while I felt the MM could get close to the magic of B&W film, I'd never been happy with digital color VS color film.

But it's not just the camera, it's Leica's interpretation, Adobe's (or other conversion software) interpretation, your chosen profile and import settings, etc, that produce the result.  And some or all of those factors have been known to change over time, even as noted, based on user feedback.  No such thing as straight out of camera.

Jeff

[shirubadanieru]

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

But it's not just the camera, it's Leica's interpretation, Adobe's (or other conversion software) interpretation, your chosen profile and import settings, etc, that produce the result.  And some or all of those factors have been known to change over time, even as noted, based on user feedback.  No such thing as straight out of camera.

Jeff

I'm using adobe color as the import settings by the way (as i prefer it to the current profile that's named M11)

[Jeff S]

I make my own camera profiles using a ColorChecker. Don’t own the M11. The M10-R serves well for my M color.

Jeff

[Adam Bonn]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Actually the M9 was initially blasted for its colors, in addition cracked sensors, red edge issues, buffer issues, card compatibility issues, etc.  

Only later do users come around (and smart ones figure out that things like colors, contrast, etc are user adjustable).  Sometimes Leica helps out the ones who haven't figured things out, for example when they changed the default tone curve for the M10 Monochrom after folks complained about flat rendering output (no surprise with high dynamic range).

How soon we forget.

Jeff

Indeed, but these days the M9 “””look””” enjoys a mythical cult status type deal with many folks claiming it’s the loveliest look ever (give it another 5 years and people might be saying the same thing about the 240)

I’m not disputing the M9 appeal I own one and I’m very fond of the rendering, but I don’t find it serves gourmet colours every time (but when it does it’s lovely)

My point really is this,

The M11 is in user honeymoon, soon the niggles and nitpicks will start, it’s normal it’s no reflection of the camera - it’s an expected  process… (and dare I say.. that seeing as the M11 appeals to folks who previously might not have bought an M -as well as those that did- the forum will see input from people who… how shall I say.. might not yet realise that Leica expects the end user to take a little more ownership of the image editing pipeline than with some other camera brands.)

anyway.. I expect that someone, some where, soon will unfavourably compare the 11 to the 9 (just like happened with the 240, 10 etc)

[Adam Bonn]

8 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

I'm using adobe color as the import settings by the way (as i prefer it to the current profile that's named M11)

Adobe color is actually a generic 3d LUT/colour table that ACR applies to every camera. It’s existence predates the M11 by quite a margin.

Thats no criticism in you liking it, just an info post about how adobe color (it kills me to miss the u outta that 😂 but I treat it as a noun) is not at all tailored for any specific camera.

In case I’ve inadvertently caused offence… the official Leica M11 DNGs (presented on Leica’s website) use generic adobe profiles (‘landscape’ seems to be a fav)  so these adobe profiles are certainly good enough in Leica’s eyes

[Adam Bonn]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I make my own camera profiles using a ColorChecker. Don’t own the M11. The M10-R serves well for my M color.

Jeff

I’m still on the M10! For what I shoot and how infrequently I get prints done (iirc you’re quite the printer Jeff so the M10R probably really suits you) it serves me fine.

I also designed my own profiles for the M10!

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

Indeed, but these days the M9 “””look””” enjoys a mythical cult status type deal with many folks claiming it’s the loveliest look ever (give it another 5 years and people might be saying the same thing about the 240)

I’m not disputing the M9 appeal I own one and I’m very fond of the rendering, but I don’t find it serves gourmet colours every time (but when it does it’s lovely)

My point really is this,

The M11 is in user honeymoon, soon the niggles and nitpicks will start, it’s normal it’s no reflection of the camera - it’s an expected  process… (and dare I say.. that seeing as the M11 appeals to folks who previously might not have bought an M -as well as those that did- the forum will see input from people who… how shall I say.. might not yet realise that Leica expects the end user to take a little more ownership of the image editing pipeline than with some other camera brands.)

anyway.. I expect that someone, some where, soon will unfavourably compare the 11 to the 9 (just like happened with the 240, 10 etc)

My point was that it’s more typical that users are unhappy at first (as with the M9), and then begin to love their camera. Not the initial ‘honeymoon’ period you suggest, where users are thrilled from the outset.

Jeff

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[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

I’m still on the M10! For what I shoot and how infrequently I get prints done (iirc you’re quite the printer Jeff so the M10R probably really suits you) it serves me fine.

I also designed my own profiles for the M10!

I had the M10 until a couple of months ago, and my prints were totally fine, as they were with my M8.2, M240, and my Monochroms.  I generated profiles for each.  My switching models had less to do with IQ than with other camera features, handling, etc.  There are many factors in the shooting, editing and print workflow, beyond the camera and lens, that influence IQ, most of which depend on my judgment and decision making. Same as in my darkroom print days.  My prints have always been on the smallish side, so I don’t need more resolution for print size; MP is a secondary issue.  The M10-R better matches my M10-Monochrom workflow, and I got a great deal trading little used gear for the BP M10-R, resulting in no cash outlay.

Jeff