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OhOh, future of CL?


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I met the New Zealand Leica rep in a photo store here last week and asked her about the CL. While she didn't reveal its future (perhaps she doesn't know), she said she personally preferred a full-frame sensor camera like the Q or M10R, which she called "an artist's camera".

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11 minutes ago, adan said:

Production lives:

M5: 1971-1975
CL (film): 1973-1976

....ten-year gap

M6: 1986-2003 (counting ttl version).

........................

I don't totally buy the digital CL/film CL analogy, as to cannabilizing M sales.…….

Well, I would choose my CL every time over a regular M10. Then again, I did buy one. However as the M10 moves toward higher MP counts there is probably more of a place for a CL type camera in Leica’s range. Something with less MP for those of us with ageing eyes and a desire for convenience.

It’s ultimately up to Leica but it will be a huge shame if they don’t make a body that can really take advantage of those lovely lenses. A few of them can resolve well into the high 30MP range and beyond. We’ve never really been given a chance to see what they can do. I am on record as being first in line for a Q shaped CL2 with IBIS and 36MP. Actually, I’d get two of them.

Gordon

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1971-1973=2 year gap and Leica gave the CL to Minolta in 1980... I bought an M6 in 1983 or early 1984 1984...

 

 

21 minutes ago, adan said:

Production lives:

M5: 1971-1975
CL (film): 1973-1976

....ten-year gap

M6: 1986-2003 (counting ttl version).

........................

I don't totally buy the digital CL/film CL analogy, as to cannabilizing M sales.

The film CL had the same lens mount as the M and accepted the indentical unadapted lenses. Except the few goggled lenses, the deep 21/28 lenses, and compromised focusing precision with 135s or 90 f/2s (unless stopped down a lot for DoF).

But a film CL user could happily work with 28mm v.2 f/2.8 (or a tiny Summaron) through 90mm (Tele-)Elmarits, which seems to be the limits of most M enthusiasts anyway. The film CL produced the identical framing and IQ as the film M (same 24x36 image area). Much more of a direct competitor to the film Ms of its time.

The digital CL really is a whole different system (TL/SL mount, 1.5x crop, EVF) for a rather different market.

If anything, I would think it compromises SL sales, at least for longer lenses, where it offers a "free 1.5x teleconverter." Makes the 90-280 SL lens into an "effective" AF 135-420mm. The 90 APO-Summicron-SL becomes an "APO-135mm f/2.0" lens.

(A thought which has crossed my mind. ;) )

But on the whole, I expect the digital CL will live or die based on its own economics - does or can Leica make an adequate return on each body or TL lens sold?

The old Micawber equation: "Annual income 20 pounds, annual expenditure 19, 19, and six. Result - happiness. Annual income 20 pounds, annual expenditure 20 pounds ought and six. Result - misery."

 

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Just now, NZDavid said:

I met the New Zealand Leica rep in a photo store here last week and asked her about the CL. While she didn't reveal its future (perhaps she doesn't know), she said she personally preferred a full-frame sensor camera like the Q or M10R, which she called "an artist's camera".

She is wrong. Shooting a 135 format camera, once considered to be small format, does not make you an artist and you can produce art with any camera. These kind of statements are the drivel of salespeople, not actual artists.

Gordon

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4 hours ago, jaapv said:

The M5 was quite capable of doing so on its own - the CL was an emergency turnover-saver being a small alternative. Leica kept it until they were well under way with the M6 to keep the exposure-TL line alive.

Leica was “well underway with the M6” when it discontinued the CL in 1976?  What happened in the intervenng 8 years (M6 released in 1984, according to the Wiki)?  The M4-2?

Edited by IkarusJohn
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30 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Leica was “well underway with the M6” when it discontinued the CL in 1976?  What happened in the intervenng 8 years (M6 released in 1984, according to the Wiki)?  The M4-2?

M5, M4-2 and CL were together in the Leitz catalogue of october 1976 so the M4-2 was 1976-1980 AFAIK. Only meter for it was the accessory Leicameter. Same for the M4-P before the M6.

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8 minutes ago, lct said:

M5, M4-2 and CL were together in the Leitz catalogue of october 1976 so the M4-2 was 1976-1980 AFAIK. Only meter for it was the accessory Leicameter. Same for the M4-P before the M6.

It all seems a bit strange, but perhaps academic.  The M4-P overlapped the introduction of the M6, but the film CL certainly does seem to have been anything but a 4 year flash-in-the pan, however successful some may view it.

The M5 ceased production in 1975, the CL in 1976 and the M6 wasn’t released until 1984.  The only “emergency turn-over saver” seems to have been the re-released M4-2 then M4-P by ElCan.  Dark days.

Conversely, the sun seems to be shining bright on Leica these days.

The T was released in 2014;  TL2 and CL in 2017; the 7 TL  lenses were released between 2014 and 2017(?).  The M10 was released in early 2017.  The SL was released in late 2015 and the SL2 in November 2019.  Leaving Stefan Daniel’s comment, which may have been interpreted beyond what he intended.  It’s a big call for Leica, not just to stop the TL and CL cameras, but to abandon 7 APS-C, L mount lenses?  At this stage, do either Sigma or Panasonic make an APS-C L mount camera?

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7 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

It’s a big call for Leica, not just to stop the TL and CL cameras, but to abandon 7 APS-C, L mount lenses?  At this stage, do either Sigma or Panasonic make an APS-C L mount camera?

A compact FF camera with crop mode could replace TL/CL cameras whereas TL and Sigma APS-C lenses could be used in their full capacity on the new FF/crop camera. Just a guess.

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18 minutes ago, lct said:

A compact FF camera with crop mode could replace TL/CL cameras whereas TL and Sigma APS-C lenses could be used in their full capacity on the new FF/crop camera. Just a guess.

True.  But, why have a full frame camera like an SL2, then use a crop lens?  I never use my TL lenses on my SL.

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1 minute ago, IkarusJohn said:

True.  But, why have a full frame camera like an SL2, then use a crop lens?  I never use my TL lenses on my SL.

I know good people here using their TL lenses on an SL2. The advantage is size and weight i guess. The FF/crop camera i referred to would have more pixels than the SL2 i suppose but again this is only a guess from my part. 

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7 hours ago, LucisPictor said:

I love my CL and love the results it gives me.
And I start to wonder if Leica won't market a successor camera because they realize that such a good camera might even more poach in the M-market.
Wasn't that the case with the old film CL? They put it down rather quickly because it took away buyers from the M.

Doubtful.  No camera eats into M sales more than the Q/Q2 but Leica is happily producing those in volume.  I don't think it makes sense for any manufacturer to avoid a product because its popularity might eat into another product.  You don't stop making the small iPhones because they eat into the sales of the bigger iPhones.  If anything, you try to improve the margins on the small iPhones so you don't give up as many $ when a customer buys a smaller iPhone over a bigger one.

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The day that Leica stops making L mount APS-C cameras is if either the demand for it has dried up or the demand is still there but competition has made it infeasible.  If that should ever happen, rest assured Leica will continue to cater to the demand for small high quality cameras whether or not they use APS-C censors.  History tells us there is demand for something smaller than the SL that is not an optical rangefinder.  So relax.  One way or another, the odds are good that there will be some solution to please the devoted CL fans here.  My bet is on a either the continuation of the CL line or a very compact full frame interchangeable lens EVF camera with a form factor somewhere between the CL and the Q.

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31 minutes ago, lct said:

I know good people here using their TL lenses on an SL2. The advantage is size and weight i guess. The FF/crop camera i referred to would have more pixels than the SL2 i suppose but again this is only a guess from my part. 

I do ..... yes size and weight .

They only give me ten mp on the SL2s but its enough .... just limits my ability to crop .

It seems to be a common from what I hear .

 

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2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Leica was “well underway with the M6” when it discontinued the CL in 1976?  What happened in the intervenng 8 years (M6 released in 1984, according to the Wiki)?  The M4-2?

They only sold the camera design to Minolta in 1980 who had been building the Leica up till then. And I bought my M6 in 1983. 

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The Wiki was not there when I collected my camera… I bought it in a town where only lived for little more than a year, so I am 100% sure.  I think that the CL confusion arises from the existence of the Leitz-Minolta CL for the Japanese market (see Cameraquest)  All CL types were built by Minolta. It is not logical that they would stop building the camera for a few years and then buy the full rights. The first CLE dates from 1981.  

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Just catching up, That's a disturbing thought about the CL line potentially ending. For me my CL is perfect for everyday and travel (Not that travel is easy currently). The little Summicron 23 is great for me. I have the 18-56 also. My main camera is the SL2 and the lenses I have are superb. I shoot in studio primarily. I had sold all of my M equipment previously and now the S system to use the SL2 all of the time in studio.
I am extremely happy with the SL2 for my (studio and available light mainly) purposes while I don't see it as practical for how I use the CL

I guess that we will see what develops from Leica now. Full frame or whatever, for me it needs to be much more compact and light than the SL2 to replace the CL for how I use that.

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