OhOh, future of CL?

[cpclee]

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4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Is it more than gaining reach with your smaller M lenses?  The disadvantage for me, is I lose the wider lenses - the 21 and 28 I really like become 32 and 42, which don’t do much for me.  I find having to rethink my focal lengths annoying (it’s probably just an age thing).  More critically, the smaller sensor increases depth of field for a given aperture, and I’ve always had a prejudice that a larger sensor or film size inherently gives a better image.  Now, before Jaap jumps in with high quality M4/3 and APS-C images, the fact is, for any given MP a larger format will give a better image.

Maybe that’s part of my indifference to APS-C - the loss of wides and the increase in depth of field than come with a smaller sensor.

 

I too use primarily M lenses on my CL and had to rethink how to cover the wide end .  In the end I got a 18-56 and couldn't be happier.  It gives me 28mm and 35mm of fullframe equivalent coverage at the wide end plus fast AF when I want it.  I now have a super compact travel kit with both range and speed covered: CL + 18-56 + 35 Summilux M + 75 Summicron M.  

With TL lenses you can still achieve a very shallow depth of field because the lenses focus *much* closer than their M counterparts.

 

[lct]

13 minutes ago, cpclee said:

With TL lenses you can still achieve a very shallow depth of field because the lenses focus *much* closer than their M counterparts.

One has to move hence change perspective for that though. The weakness of APS-C is not in the format but in lenses when they are too slow, too big or both IMHO. The latest Sigma 18-50/2.8 sounds interesting from this viewpoint.

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[LocalHero1953]

In the real world, 99% of photographers produce images for which it is totally irrelevant, in IQ terms, whether it was taken on APSC or full frame: the photographer may not be good enough, or high IQ is irrelevant to the subject and usage. I know there are people here who print and sell large fine art prints where edge-to-bleeding-edge IQ is vital, but as for the rest? The Leica CL and TL2 can produce images of a high enough quality for almost all purposes, and higher than most if not all of the competition. Through its size and versatility (AF, WYSIWYG EVF, zoom, short and long lenses) it can outshine the M in many respects.

So let's forget the notion that the CL and TL2 are somehow technically not up to it. The problem of APSC is perception, and whether any camera that is not full frame has a place in a brand's line up today. And, particularly for Leica, whether there is a market for an expensive APSC camera when for a similar price you can buy into a FF system from another brand, and when pixels and specs are more important than a critical eye exercising its own judgement about IQ.

Put it another way: is there a profitable market for an expensive, compact, versatile, APSC system that can produce images of the highest quality for most real world purposes in the hands of experienced, competent, intelligent, good-looking (sorry, got carried away there) photographers.

I suspect Leica has just decided there is not.

Rant over, and JMO/YMMV etc, of course!

Edited November 13, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[IkarusJohn]

Not being good looking, I guess I’d better sell my Porsche ….

[Michael Markey]

18 hours ago, Le Chef said:

“The phone has replaced the market for the small camera”

For people who just want to record events the convenience of an iPhone is undoubtedly true. Why carry something else around when the phone works perfectly for platforms like FB and IG.

 

I made that statement because , I think , that`s exactly what the majority of people want .

Maybe that`s I want too because those are the two platforms I use all the time.

As Paul intimated in the above post ... most of the gear which I`ve had is actually total overkill in terms of what I actually do with the result .

Throw in the fact that all of it will probably be wiped when I go and its been a waste of dosh .... very enjoyable though .

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Michael Markey

[jaapv]

10 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Is it more than gaining reach with your smaller M lenses?  The disadvantage for me, is I lose the wider lenses - the 21 and 28 I really like become 32 and 42, which don’t do much for me.  I find having to rethink my focal lengths annoying (it’s probably just an age thing).  More critically, the smaller sensor increases depth of field for a given aperture, and I’ve always had a prejudice that a larger sensor or film size inherently gives a better image.  Now, before Jaap jumps in with high quality M4/3 and APS-C images, the fact is, for any given MP a larger format will give a better image.

Maybe that’s part of my indifference to APS-C - the loss of wides and the increase in depth of field than come with a smaller sensor.

 

John,  the Voigtländer Ultra-wide and Hyper-wide Heliar (12 and 10 mm) are compact and as good as it gets. 

[jaapv]

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18 minutes ago, jaapv said:

the fact is, for any given MP a larger format will give a better image.

 

So why are medium format cameras only such a small percentage of the market? The answer is simple: because only very few photographers need "better" Or, in fact, are even able to see the difference. FF has morphed into a status symbol in photographic circles, driven by camera makers' marketing.

[LocalHero1953]

My confident prediction as an armchair CEO (based on no private line to Leica, no chats with my favourite Leica salesperson, no reading of the Japanese subtext on Nokoshita) is that Leica will launch a new FF, L-mount, EVF-based body only a bit bigger than the CL (looking like the love child of the CL and M10) but explicitly designed to take M lenses with an adapter* for maximum compactness, and the Summicron-L primes. It will have all the limitations others have suggested for the sake of keeping the size small and the battery demands and heat-dissipation down: no IBIS, small but fast/responsive EVF, limited video, unbalanced but usable with the L zooms, not the fastest AF.

 

*with a focusing helicoid movement sensor, to enable focus magnification.

Edited November 13, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[Simone_DF]

24 minutes ago, jaapv said:

So why are medium format cameras only such a small percentage of the market?

Very high price, bulky/heavy, slow AF, designed for studio and/or landscape.

[jaapv]

Are you talking about the Leica S?  Heavy and bulky, well that is exactly what full frame is compared to APS-C (and numerous posts here tell us that it is very hard to distinguish the IQ of the CL from the SL)

[EUSe]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb LocalHero1953:

My confident prediction as an armchair CEO (based on no private line to Leica, no chats with my favourite Leica salesperson, no reading of the Japanese subtext on Nokoshita) is that Leica will launch a new FF, L-mount, EVF-based body only a bit bigger than the CL (looking like the love child of the CL and M10) but explicitly designed to take M lenses with an adapter* for maximum compactness, and the Summicron-L primes. It will have all the limitations others have suggested for the sake of keeping the size small and the battery demands and heat-dissipation down: no IBIS, small but fast/responsive EVF, limited video, unbalanced but usable with the L zooms, not the fastest AF.

 

*with a focusing helicoid movement sensor, to enable focus magnification.

I wish it came true. But I need IBIS.

[cirke]

20 hours ago, Le Chef said:

But…if you see photography as more than that, and as a form of self expression over which you wish to exert a greater degree of control, then a camera of almost any size will be the better choice in fulfilling that role.

of course it's true only for you, she shoot only with iPhone ant not only for instagram but some galeries https://www.instagram.com/eauditalie/

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by cirke

[jaapv]

But now we are  talking about content. Nobody has seen comparison prints...

[jaapv]

We must be getting old - didn't we have this discussion ninety years ago?

[lct]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

My confident prediction as an armchair CEO (based on no private line to Leica, no chats with my favourite Leica salesperson, no reading of the Japanese subtext on Nokoshita) is that Leica will launch a new FF, L-mount, EVF-based body only a bit bigger than the CL (looking like the love child of the CL and M10) but explicitly designed to take M lenses with an adapter* for maximum compactness, and the Summicron-L primes. It will have all the limitations others have suggested for the sake of keeping the size small and the battery demands and heat-dissipation down: no IBIS, small but fast/responsive EVF, limited video, unbalanced but usable with the L zooms, not the fastest AF.

 

*with a focusing helicoid movement sensor, to enable focus magnification.

I would not hold my breath. If Leica launch a compact L-mount FF body it will be designed to take both L and M lenses the same way as current SL cameras. Leica will say that it works perfectly like that and if we want M lenses with zero compromise, M cameras and their outstanding Visoflex are here for that. But the compact SL (or big CL) will have IBIS, a flippy screen and a crop mode i swear .
 

[cirke]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

But now we are  talking about content. Nobody has seen comparison prints...

only the content matters , its interesting or not

[Simone_DF]

7 minutes ago, lct said:

 compact SL (or big CL) will have IBIS, a flippy screen

That's all I want to be honest. Compact, IBIS, flippy screen, L mount. Pair it with the Sigmas and you have a killer camera. 

[lct]

12 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

That's all I want to be honest. Compact, IBIS, flippy screen, L mount. Pair it with the Sigmas and you have a killer camera. 

You're not alone. It simply means that soft corners on M wides are not a problem for you, that you don't need auto image magnification with M lenses and you can live with adapters. You look like we with my Sony so to speak. Nothing to be ashamed about . 

Edited November 13, 2021 by lct

[LocalHero1953]

19 minutes ago, lct said:

I would not hold my breath. If Leica launch a compact L-mount FF body it will be designed to take both L and M lenses the same way as current SL cameras. Leica will say that it works perfectly like that and if we want M lenses with zero compromise, M cameras and their outstanding Visoflex are here for that. But the compact SL (or big CL) will have IBIS, a flippy screen and a crop mode i swear .
 

So a M camera using a visoflex is "no compromise"? In my experience usability of the M is severely compromised by the visoflex: lag, resolution, a protuberance to catch on straps, a device to lose in your bag. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[lct]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

So a M camera using a visoflex is "no compromise"? In my experience usability of the M is severely compromised by the visoflex: lag, resolution, a protuberance to catch on straps, a device to lose in your bag. 

Look at the little smiley above .