Missed chances on the CL

[jaapv]

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Wow. Thanks for valued feedback. Selling FF M is hard for me that's why I started another thread to get people's impression. I can see using my APS-C Sony more and more now a days. You are making life hard for me. 

There is still an M9, MM1 and film Ms...

[rosuna]

Stabilization in camera would imply a larger body. The same goes for sensor-cleaning system. 

 

The SL may have enough room for that, but the TL or CL have not. 

 

Stabilization in lenses is a different thing. 

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[LocalHero1953]

Fits like a glove.  I really think this is a perfect camera for me. I never expected to use the 18-56, but it is such a nice combo that I popped it into my Kleine Kombitasche M (another perfect fit, BTW), added the Elmarit 90 M and it forms a beautiful travel kit.  The M240 (departed for China today)  will not be missed. For my African travels, I have the Vario-Elmar 105-280 (glad it didn't sell;) ) and GX8 for stabilized up to 1300 equivalent (1.4x extender) and general backup. Same batteries across the systems too. The whole kit will easily fit into my ancient Reporter backpack.

Completely happy.

Yet another thread starting with grumbles by a person who doesn't own one about what a Leica is defective at, ending with the conclusion that it is perfect because of what it actually does when you have it in the hand  .

[jaapv]

I'm not grumbling - I still would like to have those features - saves switching cameras. Even perfection leaves room for desire.

[lct]

Great little camera indeed but it cannot replace full frame of course. Different beasts. What i miss the most is something i will never get i'm afraid i.e. fast compact manual wides for the CL. The same way as i missed them for my good (not so) old M8.2 and other M compatible crop cameras. As for in camera stabilization, some compact cameras offer it already but the little CL tends to get warm when it works hard so i suspect there is no room enough into the body for that. Reason why there is a grey out "Optical Image Stabilization" item in the CL menu for SL lenses i guess but i have no experience about that.

[rosuna]

As for in camera stabilization, some compact cameras offer it already.

 

 

The problem is not heat dissipation, but room for the stabilization mechanism (the sensor needs space for the movements). It depends on the size of sensor. Olympus and Panasonic have internal stabilization but the sensor is half that of APS-C format. Fuji cameras are APS-C but larger in volume (compared to the TL or CL bodies). The Leica CL seems very small. Several TL lenses seem large in comparison. You may have a L APS-C camera with stabilization, but the size of the body would be much larger. 

 

For a system aimed at small overall size lens stabilization is a good idea. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by rosuna

[jaapv]

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It goes for lenses too. The MFT Panasonic 12-60 is a lot bigger than the Leica APS-C 18-56, for instance. But still....

[lct]

The problem is not heat dissipation, but room for the stabilization mechanism (the sensor needs space for the movements). It depends on the size of sensor. Olympus and Panasonic have internal stabilization but the sensor is half that of APS-C format. Fuji cameras are APS-C but larger in volume (compared to the TL or CL bodies). The Leica CL seems very small. Several TL lenses seem large in comparison. You may have a L APS-C camera with stabilization, but the size of the body would be much larger. [...]

 

Not so sure with respect. The Sony A7r2 has in camera stabilization IINW. In spite of being a FF camera it is indeed bulkier than the CL but not by much if i refer to camerasize. com (below) and my own A7s mod and CL bodies. 

 

http://j.mp/2AZQBzQ

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Edited December 19, 2017 by lct

[jaapv]

Whatever else, I do think Leica is giving Sony a lesson in industrial design here... In comparison, every proportion of the A7 grates on the eye.

[lct]

Whatever else, I do think Leica is giving Sony a lesson in industrial design here... In comparison, every proportion of the A7 grates on the eye.

 

To each its own. I prefer classical designs personally but the curious bumps of the CL don't bother me that much finally. As for ergonomics well it's the LUF here so i will say that Leica has made real efforts on the CL. But how gliding this little cam can be... Not to say that i don't like the CL, i really do but spare the rod, spoil the child as they say in the Bible .

[SrMi]

As an owner of A7rII, agree with Jaap very much. IMO, Sony A7rII is quite a bit larger and heavier.

 

Here is the size comparison from the side. 

 

http://j.mp/2BMtZqc

 

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AFAIK, Sony is the only one that has IBIS in APS-C and FF formats (Fuji and Nikon don't have IBIS). I do not expect Leica to be able to add it to CL and SL. More realistically, we could expect IS in TL-lenses.

 

P.S. (channeling my inner Sheldon Cooper): "spare the rod, spoil the child" is not from Bible, though there is similar text in King James Bible; it's a horrible proverb IMO.

Edited December 19, 2017 by SrMi

[imants]

I would take the weight IBIS is really worth having ".........the new fuji will have camera stabilisation and weather proofing a bit up in size but that is outweighed by the advantages by a long shot especially when using zooms

Edited December 19, 2017 by imants

[imants]

Small is no longer a priority for camera systems buyers that is fast becoming the domain of the smartphone camera. What buyers look for are things like great fast glass (reasonable size), stabilisation, weather proffing, stable software and a roadmap something that fiji, olympus and panasonic will or do offer at a lower price

Leica will get there but right now what it offers is a bit “all over the shop” If there are enough buyers the next offering will be a heck of a lot more mature all be slightly bigger

 

A camera worth keeping a eye on

Edited December 19, 2017 by imants

[Jared]

Stabilization in camera would imply a larger body. The same goes for sensor-cleaning system. 

 

The SL may have enough room for that, but the TL or CL have not. 

 

Stabilization in lenses is a different thing. 

 

 

The Sony A6500 is actually slightly smaller in total volume than the CL (thicker, but not as tall or as wide), and it has IBIS.  It's also within 10% on weight, so no huge penalty there.    Plus phase detect hybrid focus.  

 

From my perspective, the one major miss is IBIS.  I'd love a little menu simplification as well (even if it meant an extra button).  Plus, I think the touch screen should include menu choices.  

[jaapv]

Small is no longer a priority for camera systems buyers that is fast becoming the domain of the smartphone camera. What buyers look for are things like great fast glass (reasonable size), stabilisation, weather proffing, stable software and a roadmap something that fiji, olympus and panasonic will or do offer at a lower price

Leica will get there but right now what it offers is a bit “all over the shop” If there are enough buyers the next offering will be a heck of a lot more mature all be slightly bigger

 

A camera worth keeping a eye on

 

Speak for yourself -see the collective sigh of relief when the M10 turned out to have shrunk. - And lost some important features because of size restrictions.

[Wojtek]

I see CL as a ergonomically better TL2. And what I miss in TL2 most is fast AF.

Image stabilisation - that's great. But for me personally - better AF would be even more important. IS would probably be next on the list though

 

(Assuming CL can be used with external flashes. TL2 can't. Which I see as it's absolutely biggest drawback. $2000 camera (no lens) without ability to work with flash...)

Edited December 20, 2017 by Wojtek

[jaapv]

Oh yes, flash is not a problem. All Leica flashes (except the venerable SF20) can be used on TTL, all other universal flash systems on Auto.

[imants]

Speak for yourself -see the collective sigh of relief when the M10 turned out to have shrunk. - And lost some important features because of size restrictions.

 Yea but it didn't have all the extras people expect eg stabilization auto this and auto . Shows that simplified  camera needs  lead to better form and function for those that shoot with grace

Edited December 20, 2017 by imants

[tonyniev]

Leica CL with 11-23 mm lens with Sony A7R with 16-35 mm lens

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[gbealnz]

As an owner of A7rII, agree with Jaap very much. IMO, Sony A7rII is quite a bit larger and heavier.

 

Here is the size comparison from the side. 

 

http://j.mp/2BMtZqc

 

test.png

 

AFAIK, Sony is the only one that has IBIS in APS-C and FF formats (Fuji and Nikon don't have IBIS). I do not expect Leica to be able to add it to CL and SL. More realistically, we could expect IS in TL-lenses.

 

P.S. (channeling my inner Sheldon Cooper): "spare the rod, spoil the child" is not from Bible, though there is similar text in King James Bible; it's a horrible proverb IMO.

And with respect, (and I own neither camera, at the moment) the comparison should be SL vs A7RII surely?

Gary