Leica M-D(iscussion) : to screen or not to screen. That is the question.

[ramarren]

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John - just for the record, it is mess (measuring) + sucher (finder) - messsucher or meßsucher - three sss's. And "M3" meant Meßsucher with 3 framelines (50-90-135). Which interpretation, of course, went the way of the dodo as soon as the M2 appeared (also three framelines, or if you insist, 3 windows). Or the MD/MDa, as ramarren mentions. Or the M1 (sucher, but no meß).

 

As to the M-D. I get the concept, but what happens when someone comes back from a day (or a month) of shooting, and finds out their camera decided to throw a rod, and half their pictures are black or white (blank) frames?

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/238422-pitch-black-photos/

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/259037-white-frames/

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/251583-black-frames/

 

I'm not a chimper myself - the next picture is more important than the one I already got, or missed. But when there is a break, I certainly make a quick scan to make sure everything is working right.

 

 

1: they should have checked their captures more frequently than once a month (download to device or computer, look at them). 

2: same thing that happens when you mis-load a roll of film in an M4-2, you cry a lot. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by ramarren

[sml_photo]

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/251583-black-frames/

 

I'm not a chimper myself - the next picture is more important than the one I already got, or missed. But when there is a break, I certainly make a quick scan to make sure everything is working right.

I SO agree with you, adan!  I only look at the screen if I am unsure of exposure or something.  I love having that feature, compared to film cameras (I had an M-4 for 30 years among other cameras).  It's "saved" me on several occasions!  I can't conceive of a reason for me not to have the feature available...to turn on or off as needed. 

But, I assume Leica knows their market.  If it sells well and makes money for Leica, I'm all for it!!

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[Rick]

I'd like to see  a M without screen with an Electronic RangeFinder

I don't need a screen , a good App and wifi is a better option

 

 

That makes sense... carry around the camera and an iPhone or iPad to look at instead just so you don't have to look at a screen on the back of the camera.  

 

And when you say, "I don't need a screen..." what do you think the App is going to connect to, a darkroom enlarger?  

 

Rick

[Cyril Jayant]

<< The list of features and menus within menus and myriad combinations is fine for some applications (I guess...and I'm sure I'll be reminded by some members of the utility of each and every possible permutation and combination, that I just don't get it, etc.), but it just frustrates and distracts me, there's a threshold for me. That's my own personal preference, I love elegant simplicity...and I also love the challenge of working within limitations. "

 

"The great thing is that Leica has provided us with some pretty cool choices, if you think about it. Sure..every day someone on the LUF and elsewhere is groaning about the price, or where's my AF lenses for an M, or in-body stabilization like the other guys have. "

 

What they've done, thankfully and unlike any other manufacturer out there, is add a choice for people like me who don't want one at all...regardless of the many arguments provided about the 'necessity' of a screen. We actually CAN have choices of simplicity in the digital age - I know that's shocking to many who feel the sole purpose of digital tech and its 'progress' is to release a 'new and improved' iPad/camera/sensor/smartphone every two months. >>

 

---------------

 

I agree compleately what Jon says , and strongly see that too in my personal experience as a Leica User.

 

Leica has offered lot more innovation to get the best in photography and and it is always in it's high level.

 

But I have just one question that comes to my mind regarding M RF cameras . it is some thing I am missing in this Camera . DOUBLE EXPOSURE    I am a lousy photographer who like this Feature in Negative cameras .

I learn photography at looking at other photography and This Double exposure Trick has attracted me for a long time love .

So I confess I learn how to do this in Some Analogue cameras  ( which they did not have this feature as special selection on a menu or doing a dedicated button to do it ) while cranking the rewind liver .

I bought a Hasselblad On which you can do it easily on a menu.

I bought a Xpan 2 as You can do it very comfortably.

I Bought Canon A-1 ( My first ever camera ) and it inspired me this feature.

And Nikon F5 And I found I was able to continue my D/Expo shots easily...

 

But not with my first M6 Bought 1998 had dis appointed me until I find out how to do it...

   I completely Exposed a film for the first espousers .. all 36 exposes and reloaded it into my second layer of exposing . Not a good idea as it accumulated unnecessary wast of frames . rarely few good shot and they are random success.

But once a while I try my luck .. OK now I am out of the track and out of the point here completely.

All I want to ask is Why Leica Can't integrate this < double exposure feature >  in to a M camera .. I 'll buy that at  whatever prise and I know I love to use it in any camera . If they can do as " à la carte " option ..

I don't care about if some one want to say You have photoshop to do it . Yes I know some people did it in many different ways .  JERRY U. UELSMANN did it in his Dark room with 5-6 enlargers to print on bunch of negatives to one photo paper .

 

This is ome evolution an add fo this will make  some photographer happy...

Edited May 2, 2016 by jaapv

[jaapv]

I suppose it is not difficult - point and shoots have autopanorama and exposure stacking, but it seems rather senseless, it is so easy in Photoshop - and with density control.

[lykafile]

I so want to understand no LCD...but having it it and not using it is better than not having it at all.

Especially when it doesn't change the price or the cameras dimensions?

All it does it take away to me what to me is a very important option....insurance

 

I dont miss shots because if the LCD any more than I missed shots because I was changing lenses or film.

 

Its your job the get the shot and the right tool is the one that takes away minimizes option for error.

but it looks so cool....

[bencoyote]

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As a software guy, the thing that I find most interesting about the M-D is not the lack of a screen but rather the lack of menus. It made me realize how much of the menus were there just for features that I find superfluous. I always shoot raw rather than JPG. 

Sharpness, Saturation, Contrast, Film Mode, and Color Space all gone. If you get rid of playback you don't need page 3 and so on and so on. The number of features that actually drop away is pretty impressive.

 

I may never buy a M-D but I think that the exercise of making an M-D is good for Leica and I appreciate it, I think it will benefit us all in the long run. I think starting with the M-D's ultra minimal UI, they have intentionally thought through every item and will be able to cut away some unnecessary legacy items. The M240 with all its simplicity still has 14 buttons (6 along the display, 5 in the info/direction, M front and shutter),  2 wheels, a 4 way switch, and 6 pages of menus. It probably doesn't need quite that much.

 

I still want to chimp every so often especially when it a collection of hard shots (e.g. Fire spinning -- am I even close to right?), every once in a while I want LV (macro), sometimes I want 2s vs 12s timer (steady vs. in the group) and some times I like bracketing (because the shot that I want actually does require HDR -- I've tried absolutely everything else). Probably everything that I care about could fit on 2 pages and thinking about it, I bet most everything could be done with 4 back buttons like they do on the SL.

 

I don't want to turn this into another "what will the next M be like" thread but given the M-D I'm kind of hopeful that the next M's menu and control system will go on a diet. I figure 6 buttons (4 back like the SL) shutter and front, and two wheels. That combined with 2 pages of menus and I think they will have achieved a nearly ideal balance of simplicity and functionality. Take that Sony - let's see if you can do that with the A7. ;-)

[lct]

More analogue controls please. 

[wattsy]

I suspect you're enjoying your cameras too much to worry about your photography at the moment!

 

 

Peter, although I agree with much of what you write, I do think you rather overdo the implied dichotomy between the liking of photographic equipment and of photography. Of course, there are many people for whom the cameras are the thing and the act of taking photographs is simply some kind of post-purchase justification for owning the kit but there is no reason why someone having that sense of priority should matter to anyone else. In any case, I don't think the two interests need be in conflict and there are many great photographers who have had a parallel interest in the kit (see, for example, some of Eggleston's cameras ).

[250swb]

1: they should have checked their captures more frequently than once a month (download to device or computer, look at them). 

2: same thing that happens when you mis-load a roll of film in an M4-2, you cry a lot. 

 

I'm willing to bet the vast majority of digital captures are reviewed within hours, days at most, and the actual camera (LCD or not) makes no real difference to the outcome because the memory of the event captured is still fresh. Rolls of film have on the other hand always tended (unless news stories) to be processed days or weeks later than the events captured and the memory of what they contain is less fresh. Other things have happened between capture and processing, the memory re-edits captures on a roll of film the longer it takes before processing. So when it is finally processed the images are new again but seem in a wider context.

 

I remember when Josef Koudelka came to use our college darkrooms and he processed 1500 rolls of film, not many by his standard. But enough film to have forgotten the individual pictures each roll might contain. So when they are processed the immediate emotion of an individual image has been replaced by an emotion for the work as a whole and how it is progressing. This radically affects editing the photographs, images are seen more critically in hindsight.

 

And this is the flaw with using a digital camera without an LCD, this is why imagining the genie can be put back in the bottle is an affectation, because the relative immediacy of the image remains, so you have all the benefits of quick retrieval, but none of the benefits of contemplation. Imagining the lack of an LCD takes you back to a simpler way of working and puts the photographer in touch with the benefits of working with film is a lot of hogwash because it ignores the actual benefits and replaces them with a surface veneer of nostalgia. The only way to achieve a more critical contemplative state of working with a digital camera isn't to buy one without an LCD but to desist from posting or printing any pictures for a few weeks or months after capture, and then see if they are good enough.

 

Steve

Edited May 3, 2016 by 250swb

[edwardkaraa]

There is also the aspect of working without a safety net. It could be quite thrilling and cause a few disasters as well

[Bill Livingston]

surface veneer of nostalgia

 

 

Very well put, Steve.

 

Anyone seriously considering what they perceive to be 'advantages' surely should consider whether a film M would perhaps be a better option for them. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Bill Livingston

[honcho]

 

.........Anyone seriously considering what they perceive to be 'advantages' surely should consider whether a film M would perhaps be a better option for them. 

No!

 

But I do think being honest with themselves about their decision to buy would be a useful starting point. For the rest of us, it's probably best just to accept there is now another choice and get on with making images.

[jaapv]

Why do "they" have to be "honest with themselves"? It is their money and their choice. Surely they are entitled to their motivation as well?

 

It is , quite apart from any functional considerations, a beautiful camera. For some that can be reason enough to buy, and why not?

[Bill Livingston]

No!

 

But I do think being honest with themselves about their decision to buy would be a useful starting point. For the rest of us, it's probably best just to accept there is now another choice and get on with making images.

 

 

I wouldn't either... but I might buy a film M, probably an M4, just for the pleasure of owning one. It wouldn't get used much, it would be a vanity purchase. I have had enough of developing and printing film since the late sixties to not find it appealing in the least. 

 

I think a lot of the motivation here is a mix of nostalgia for days past, to perhaps a more creative period in people's lives and a belief that returning to that 'simplicity' will somehow return that lost creativity - which of course will wear off after a few weeks when the user realises that the tool doesn't really matter much... what matters is what is going on in the mind of the photographer...

 

But Jaap's point is valid too... sometimes people just want to own something because it appeals... like my M4... (which I will buy one day! )

[pop]

I think a lot of the motivation here is a mix of nostalgia for days past, to perhaps a more creative period in people's lives and a belief that returning to that 'simplicity' will somehow return that lost creativity - which of course will wear off after a few weeks when the user realises that the tool doesn't really matter much... what matters is what is going on in the mind of the photographer...

I suppose that's the way many Windows users commented on the user interface of the Mac OS, back when it was well designed.

[Paul J]

People could care less about what others do and just get on with their own lives, accepting they have their own preferences which are different to others.

[jmr]

Personally, I have found using the M60 for 17 months nothing but a pleasure.

 

Mike Evans at Macfilos asked me to write about my experiences, if you're interested in one man's view.

 

http://macfilos.com/photo/leica-md-m60edition-reviews-tests-impressions

[honcho]

... For some that can be reason enough to buy, and why not?

That was my point. You obviously missed it.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

Sorry if I did.

 

But I do think being honest with themselves

probably threw me off the track.