Leica M-D(iscussion) : to screen or not to screen. That is the question.

[Peter H]

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Peter, although I agree with much of what you write, I do think you rather overdo the implied dichotomy between the liking of photographic equipment and of photography. Of course, there are many people for whom the cameras are the thing and the act of taking photographs is simply some kind of post-purchase justification for owning the kit but there is no reason why someone having that sense of priority should matter to anyone else. In any case, I don't think the two interests need be in conflict and there are many great photographers who have had a parallel interest in the kit (see, for example, some of Eggleston's cameras ).

Yes, I'm sure you're right that I overdo it. It's probably a form of displaced self-criticism.

 

I don't ever mean to suggest that a love of cameras is incompatible with a love of photography though. I love both and probably most of us here do in one way or another. It's just that I think they are less intimately and permanently connected to each other than we sometimes acknowledge.

 

I do have a powerful admiration for photographers I know who care very little for which camera they use and who produce wonderful photos regardless. There's something incomparably appealing about that approach to taking photos.

 

I would love to be develop (rediscover?) such an uncomplicated passion for photography. I don't have the strength of will to test myself by selling all my camera gear and starting again with a £100 budget, but I find that idea infinitely more appealing than an M-D.

[IkarusJohn]

Peter,

 

I suspect you need to rethink your emotional responses to Leica's new offerings. The SL upset you and now you seem bothered by the M-D (no, I'm not patronising you - I'm being deadly serious). 

 

Where is the virtue in selling your gear and buying a budget camera (or a very good one bought wisely secondhand, but apparently cheaply) and what does that have to do with other people buying the M-D?  Expensive, cheap, well-made, badly made, or expensive, badly made and tasteless - if it works for you, does it really matter?

 

Conversely, if it doesn't gel for you, ditch it. 

 

Most of my camera gear has been bought because it works for me.  I've then run them into the ground. I've sold gear that didn't work for (marvellous, but I couldn't get them to work or fathom their menus), but I've never "upgraded" a camera. My first Leica was the M9, and it died. I sold an MP, because I couldn't justify it, but the others I still have and use(oh, apart from the T - that didn't work for me) The release of the next M, SL, Monochrom or whatever won't stop my cameras from working, and the fact that Leica releases a camera you don't want, like or understand anyone else wanting or liking, doesn't mean that the next M won't be exactly what you want. 

 

I'm sure you will be happy with it, and it's new EVF and shiny sensor. When people are raving about the newest M in a few years with 100MP and all the new wizardry, I hope my M60 and Monochrom are still working, because I plan to be using them. And my SL. It's what I've done so far with my film cameras (other than the ones that have got nicked). 

 

Cheers

John

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[Peter H]

I'm not really bothered by the M-D. It's just another one of those burps that Leica comes up with every now and again, and as long as it does no harm to the development of the M line, it's no more than a talking point for me.

 

I was seriously disappointed by the SL and remain so, but I've always acknowledged that for some people it will be great camera, and again, as long as it doesn't hinder the development of the M line, I can remain indifferent even if I express my indifference a little more strongly than Is strictly necessary.

 

The M is, in my opinion, by far the most important product in Leica's stable and one of the very few genuinely important single camera models still available that doesn't have a readily available alternative, and I want nothing to interfere with its essential technological progress, so whenever I see cameras that I fear may damage Leica's determination to continue to develop the best manual-focus canera still made, I get nervous. Maybe unnecessarily nervous, but that's why conversation and exchange of opinions and ideas is healthy.

[IkarusJohn]

Of course; and challenging those opinions is equally helpful. 

 

When Leica's flagship is a camera that is based on a film camera with tiny manual focus lenses and an optical viewfinder, it is hard to see how the M-D can damage that, or the SL. I was hugely disappointed by the M(240) for all the reasons you espouse - I think that camera's lack of clear focus and indifferent implementation damaged the market sector established by the wonderful M9 camera. 

 

But then, that ship has sailed. The M(240) replacement is very unlikely to offer less functionality. Isn't that in part why Leica came up ith the M-E, M262 and now the M-D?

[jmahto]

Of course; and challenging those opinions is equally helpful. 

 

When Leica's flagship is a camera that is based on a film camera with tiny manual focus lenses and an optical viewfinder, it is hard to see how the M-D can damage that, or the SL. I was hugely disappointed by the M(240) for all the reasons you espouse - I think that camera's lack of clear focus and indifferent implementation damaged the market sector established by the wonderful M9 camera. 

 

But then, that ship has sailed. The M(240) replacement is very unlikely to offer less functionality. Isn't that in part why Leica came up ith the M-E, M262 and now the M-D?

Highlight mine. My understanding is that the purpose is to make money off existing technology (M9 for M-E, M262and M-D for M240) at the tail end. Before the next gen technology (sensor, EVF, RF mechanism) comes along. I don't see this as a sign for less functionality nex-gen M.

[IkarusJohn]

I don't see this as a sign for less functionality nex-gen M.

 

Nor do I. The genie is out of the bottle with the M(240), and it's replacement will presumably offer more. 

 

For the same reason Leica offers a meterless M-A, I think Leica will also offer M digital cameras with less options. Run-out technology or not, they seem to sell. There does seem to be a market for thise who want an M camera that still takes still images, with less electronic options.

 

Edit - I suspect those buyers aren't bothered by technological uogrades and the functionality merry-go-round. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by IkarusJohn

[Joshua Lowe]

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http://mediastudies.transylvania-college.ro/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/daniel-arnold-tumblr-photography-3.jpg

 

Just seems amusingly appropriate

 

pete

 

Love this photo.

 

It's funny because chimping has been derided for 20 years as a poor habit by pros and amateurs from all corners.  But literally within a day of the M-D's announcement I've noticed certain people have taken to defending chimping as if it's some kind of valuable practice.  Talk about any port in a storm... championing bad habits and bad photography for the sake of criticizing a camera they weren't going to buy in the first place.  

Edited May 3, 2016 by Joshua Lowe

[bencoyote]

I'm not really bothered by the M-D. It's just another one of those burps that Leica comes up with every now and again, and as long as it does no harm to the development of the M line, it's no more than a talking point for me.

 

<snip>

 

The M is, in my opinion, by far the most important product in Leica's stable and one of the very few genuinely important single camera models still available that doesn't have a readily available alternative, and I want nothing to interfere with its essential technological progress, so whenever I see cameras that I fear may damage Leica's determination to continue to develop the best manual-focus canera still made, I get nervous. Maybe unnecessarily nervous, but that's why conversation and exchange of opinions and ideas is healthy.

 

 

On the contrary, I think it will help the M development over the long haul. I think making a M-D got Leica looking carefully at what is absolutely needed with regards to the controls and the menus. In comparison to other current cameras, the M is amazingly simple. However, with 14 buttons, two dials, a 4-way switch and 6 pages of menus, it still has a considerable amount of cruft that is a legacy from some idealized "digital camera" concept executed in the 90's. With the M-D, Leica reconsidered every feature and button and broke away from that pattern. Now the next M can be an even simpler more elegant M with fewer buttons and simpler menus without all the legacy 90's era digital camera stuff tagging along from generation to generation.

 

I would say more so than any particular product line, Leica's key resource is creativity. They are executing new and interesting ideas - things that few other camera companies are doing. That is innovation and creativity.

 

The X series - the first large sensor compact

The T - a new manufacturing concept CNC milled bodies and a new touchscreen UI

The SL - a truly professional grade mirrorless camera. The system as in all the lenses will take a while to catch up.

The diversity of the M line including the M-D explores different concepts - it is elaboration on the theme breaking down the idea of linear evolution. In essence it is asking which one is right for you?

[Peter H]

Love this photo.

 

It's funny because chimping has been derided for 20 years as a poor habit by pros and amateurs from all corners.  But literally within a day of the M-D's announcement I've noticed certain people have taken to defending chimping as if it's some kind of valuable practice.  Talk about any port in a storm... championing bad habits and bad photography for the sake of criticizing a camera they weren't going to buy in the first place.  

 

 

You may be confusing who has said what.  I, amongst others, have never ever criticised "chimping": in fact I believe this is the first time I've even used the word because I believe it is intended to be mildly insulting.

 

Many of us have for years defended the practice though, way before a screen-less digital camera was even thought of.  I don't believe your point has very much validity.

[Adam]

I don't mind when others chimp. I hate it when I do it. I wish I was secure enough to resist the urge to double check the image. Then again, I can instantly check if I managed to focus my 75mm at f2., and I can discover that I left the shutter on a different setting and the highlights are blown.

 

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

[jmahto]

Like any technology, there is good and bad. Think of how much damage on-camera-flash has done to photography. But at the same time it can be used creatively. Similarly, rear LCD has its place in photography. But removing it is a marketing ploy and not fulfilling someone's zen needs (IMHO). I wish Leica success though.

 

Having said that, I would love a film M size EVF camera without LCD and optimized for M and legacy glass. Is that a smaller M240 without LCD and even better sensor! There is no harm in dreaming.

[jmahto]

I don't mind when others chimp. I hate it when I do it. I wish I was secure enough to resist the urge to double check the image. Then again, I can instantly check if I managed to focus my 75mm at f2., and I can discover that I left the shutter on a different setting and the highlights are blown.

 

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

My LCD is permanently covered during shooting. In difficult shots I bracket without taking eyes off from subject. For focus it is taking multiple shots at slightly different focus points. For exposure, I point the camera in different brightness direction, lock by half press, recompose and shoot. I have gotten rid of my habit of chimping.

 

In between when I have leisure time, I uncover the LCD and go through pictures. More to admire my own creativity than to check focus and exposure. That happens in LR at the end of the day.

Edited May 3, 2016 by jmahto

[jamriman]

I wonder how many new M-D owners are going to want to trade for a new M240 after a year or so have gone by. I'd like to grab a used one in a few years in addition to the new M240 but I fear I'd be one of those willing to lose $ to get the M240 back.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited May 4, 2016 by jamriman

[platypus]

I've always thought LCD screens on cameras aesthetically hideous and more than a tad clunky, they are also annoying fingerprint magnets, but for digital cameras they admittedly

do have their uses and are very convenient for carrying out certain small camera operations. Also, while shooting, they're handy for a quick check of exposure in an emergency. 

Other than that I don't find the quality of the M screens much use for anything, given their low rez, I certainly wouldn't depend on them to check focus...my eyes aren't that good.   

 

Coming from many years of film background and having only a few years of digital experience I find I've not so far picked up the dread habit of chimping. So, from my perspective

anyway, the creation of the beautiful M-D seems quite unnecessary, however I hope others don't feel the same and that Leica sells tons of them.

[zlatkob]

Love this photo.

 

It's funny because chimping has been derided for 20 years as a poor habit by pros and amateurs from all corners.  But literally within a day of the M-D's announcement I've noticed certain people have taken to defending chimping as if it's some kind of valuable practice.  Talk about any port in a storm... championing bad habits and bad photography for the sake of criticizing a camera they weren't going to buy in the first place.  

 

I've always defended chimping.  People who claim they don't chimp eventually learn that they should have chimped.  It's an excellent habit to check one's work at appropriate times, and to make adjustments if needed.  After using film cameras since the 1970's, I could not wait to chimp.  The LCD on a camera is a dream come true — easily one of the best inventions in the history of photography.

[jcraf]

I'm ' chimping' with my M-D, so ingrained is the habit....

 

Shoot, tilt, squint, shoot tilt, squint.

 

It'll stop soon, I hope.

Edited May 4, 2016 by jcraf

[Adam]

My LCD is permanently covered during shooting. In difficult shots I bracket without taking eyes off from subject. For focus it is taking multiple shots at slightly different focus points. For exposure, I point the camera in different brightness direction, lock by half press, recompose and shoot. I have gotten rid of my habit of chimping.

 

In between when I have leisure time, I uncover the LCD and go through pictures. More to admire my own creativity than to check focus and exposure. That happens in LR at the end of the day.

 

I rarely pause to admire my own creativity - but I do chimp, and dislike it. Different wiring.

 

But I agree it is good to use common sense techniques. Problem is there are cases where I still screw up, and I only find out that I did screw up when I chimp. So via re-enforcement, I chimp just in case I screwed up. 

 

PS. Focusing on different points with a 75 Summicron is pointless at f2. The DOF is too narrow. You either got it or not. Also, pointing in different directions will not change exposure if the shutter is in manual. That is why I gave those two examples.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Adam

[jmahto]

I rarely pause to admire my own creativity - but I do chimp, and dislike it. Different wiring.

 

But I agree it is good to use common sense techniques. Problem is there are cases where I still screw up, and I only find out that I did screw up when I chimp. So via re-enforcement, I chimp just in case I screwed up. 

 

PS. Focusing on different points with a 75 Summicron is pointless at f2. The DOF is too narrow. You either got it or not. Also, pointing in different directions will not change exposure if the shutter is in manual. That is why I gave those two examples.

Highlight mine. I don't have 75 f/2 but I do shoot with 50lux indoors at 1.4 and sometimes 90 Tele Elmarit-m at 2.8. for distant shots the DOF is not so bad and I have good confidence in focus. For closer subjects (like portraits) I keep shooting many frames (my wife and kid, my main subjects, both have no patience if I chimp ) and curate later. For exposure I shoot in auto mode most of the time and go manual rarely. Bottom line is that I am able to avoid chimping.

 

If it is once in a lifetime shoot then chimping doesn't help since the moment is gone. See below:

https://flic.kr/p/jwnAsg

 

If the subject is more or less static and it is critical to get the best picture then chimping certainly will help and I understand.

 

Fortunately I don't shoot in such a stressed environment.    

[Exodies]

There's more to chimping than checking and improving focus and exposure. It's the only way to learn to handle parallax differences between the lens and viewfinder and the only way to know what was in the bottom right corner of the frame with some lenses.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[-Lss-]

There's more to chimping than checking and improving focus and exposure. It's the only way to learn to handle parallax differences between the lens and viewfinder and the only way to know what was in the bottom right corner of the frame with some lenses.

Yes, chimping does provide a faster way of feedback for beginners.