NB23 Posted March 22, 2015 Share #61 Posted March 22, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Black Chrome 50 Lux, heavier, longer (with hood), with the looks of a voigtlander and more expensive. Pass. Talk about being Misinformed. I won't go in depth point by point, but let's just say that the voigtlanders are Leica copies. This lens is a Pure Leica design. As pure as it gets. It's a lux Versin 1 design from 1959. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Hi NB23, Take a look here NEW: 35 cron and 50 lux available in BLACK CHROME. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wlaidlaw Posted March 22, 2015 Share #62 Posted March 22, 2015 Talk about being Misinformed. I won't go in depth point by point, but let's just say that the voigtlanders are Leica copies. This lens is a Pure Leica design. As pure as it gets. It's a lux Versin 1 design from 1959. ......but with the ASPH optics. I posted a page or so back that I actually thought it looked like a Summilux II or III, which had the scalloped grip on the focus ring of the black model. Whereas the chrome S1 had a scalloped grip, the black one had regular "all the way round" knurling. I worked all my summer vacation of 1967 as a welder at Dounreay nuclear power station, living in a caravan with two other welders, to buy a second hand black Summilux 50 first series, to go with the M4 body I had been given as a 21st present. I still have the M4 but the Summilux was sadly stolen, with a whole lot of other stuff when we moved house in 1983. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted March 22, 2015 Share #63 Posted March 22, 2015 Talk about being Misinformed. I won't go in depth point by point, but let's just say that the voigtlanders are Leica copies. This lens is a Pure Leica design. As pure as it gets. It's a lux Versin 1 design from 1959. The Black Chrome 50 Lux, heavier, longer (with hood), with the looks of a copy of an old fashioned Leica... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted March 23, 2015 Share #64 Posted March 23, 2015 I visited RDC in London today, ostensibly to buy nothing but to catch up with my good friends Ivor and Elaine. But, being pathetically weak, I have pre-ordered one of each to go with my black M240P. So it's goodbye to my black 50 'lux asph and chrome 35 asph 'cron. The latter is not 6 bit coded, so the spend was softened a little.......Yeah, yeah I know. Feeble excuse..... I will, however, miss the convenience of the pull and twist hood on the 50. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted March 23, 2015 Share #65 Posted March 23, 2015 The Black Chrome 50 Lux, heavier, longer (with hood), with the looks of a copy of an old fashioned Leica... Same length as regular asph (which has a useless hood). So if you insist on using a hood, both lenses will be the same size. Heavier, yes. Thanks to the much better material used. Better build. Brass over aluminum. Quality. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted March 23, 2015 Share #66 Posted March 23, 2015 Same length as regular asph (which has a useless hood). So if you insist on using a hood, both lenses will be the same size. Heavier, yes. Thanks to the much better material used. Better build. Brass over aluminum. Quality. Thanks for the info on size. The build quality of the standard Lux is more than good enough for me. If the Black Chrome Lux was lighter than the standard Lux it would be to my advantage. If it were less expensive than the standard Lux it would be to my advantage. Frankly I don't give a damn whether the lens is black chrome or sky blue with pink dots. I use lenses to make my images not as apparel to enhance my image. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 23, 2015 Share #67 Posted March 23, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks for the info on size. The build quality of the standard Lux is more than good enough for me. If the Black Chrome Lux was lighter than the standard Lux it would be to my advantage. If it were less expensive than the standard Lux it would be to my advantage. Keith, There certainly seemed a feeling that for the 35mm ASPH Summilux, there was a higher proportion of totally satisfactory chrome/titanium/brass lenses than black anodised aluminium alloy. One possible explanation was that it was easier to machine brass to very fine tolerances than alloy, due to the superior cutting and machining, self lubricating properties of brass compared with alloy, which can have a spalling issue. That is why many modern high precision machining techniques for alloy use precision grinding/laser cutting/spark erosion rather than regular cutting tools. I had a long talk with various people at Solms in 2007, about the sample variation problems with the ASPH 35 Summilux. The feeling was that the precision required for a prefect example of this lens, was close to 1 micron, which Leica and their sub-contractors were struggling to deliver or even get close to. Therefore even in these days, we might be better off with brass body lenses than alloy. Zeiss when they were designing the ZM/ZA/ZE lens series, came up with designs where the required optical tolerances matched the manufacturing tolerances that Cosina or Zeiss themselves could achieve on a day to day basis, even if it meant bigger lenses with more elements. That is why today, a poor ZM lens is a real rarity. In a way you have to applaud Leica's optical ambitions for ultimate performance, allied to very compact size but we may have to live in that case, with sample variation and errors like the 50APO flare problem plus the weight penalty of brass against light alloy. Wilson 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 24, 2015 Share #68 Posted March 24, 2015 Awww, poor poor brass. It's no longer considered an alloy, whilst aluminum has been upgraded to alloy status. Alright, my nerdy-ness is going to shine through... In theory any two metals that are mixed together become classified as an alloy, such as brass (zink and copper... sometimes lead too). Aluminium in its purest form is not an alloy, because aluminum is one of the elements on the periodic table. However in practice, all consumer products made of metal are alloys, including aluminium. It's super rare that aluminium is made in it's purest form to consumers, it's usually mixed with some other metals to give the alloy properties to benefit the final product. So from the consumer's point of view, all metals are alloys. Nerdy-ness aside, thank you Wilson for the info about Zeiss' lens production and their tolerances. I've always wondered why they're always about 30-50% bigger than their Leica and Canon/Nikon counterparts, your explanation makes sense! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted March 24, 2015 Share #69 Posted March 24, 2015 There are dozens of different aluminum alloys, if not more. I can't believe there isn't one that doesn't have the properties needed, e.g. required machining precision. Aluminum alloy wins on stiffness alone compared to brass. Brass is soft and easy to machine with extant methods and, being heavy, conveys that olde-timey maxim of weight = quality. About lubrication behavior I won't argue. My little black 35 Summicron Asph is surprisingly heavy for its size. I don't know where that weight comes from but it's heavy enough for me. I've never even held a 35 Summilux but it might very well be more than I'm interested in if it was very much heavier than the 'cron. But the real problem here is not this alloy or that alloy. The problem is digital sensors. They are wiping out the concept of assembly and performance tolerances, and with every 25% bump in pixel count your dream lens looks farther out in the weeds. The pixel-peeping bloggers have nothing else to talk about but ever smaller crops, and digital sensors (whatever additional things they might offer), will always push pixel counts because the wonks can deliver that and Marketing can run with it. It's tried and true and they don't intend to give it up. If you like a heavier lens, or you like its looks, or whatever, don't equivocate. Just buy it and move on. You'll be happier. The material of which it's made is the last of your problems. Not so for optical designers. s-a Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 24, 2015 Share #70 Posted March 24, 2015 Agree with all that you wrote. I'm not going to lie; I'm apeshit about the new black chrome 35mm only due to the finish, not because it's outer barrel is brass. Come to think of it, isn't most the focussing interiors of Leica lenses made of brass? All that self-lubricating hopla, I think you can get a peek of brass focus helicoid around the mounting end of the lens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 24, 2015 Share #71 Posted March 24, 2015 If you look at the history of aluminium alloy development, which was very strongly driven by the exigencies of war (a subject I am very interested in), copper and zinc were originally added to aluminium to improve its machining and casting properties around the time of WW1. It was a lovely bit of serendipity that this also increased tensile strength very significantly and further allowed heat treatment and or forging/work hardening to produce further improvements in mechanical properties. These developments, as so often happens, occurred simultaneously in the UK, USA and Germany in 1916/17, resulting in the Mercedes DIIIaü straight six, Liberty L-12 and Bentley BR1 9 cylinder aero engines, all with duraluminium pistons, rather than cast iron or steel, which most previous engines had used. Sure there are aluminium alloys which machine better nowadays but anyone who has tried to cut a very fine thread (50 tpi etc) in model engineering, knows that there is nothing easier to get a nice clean cut in than brass. With even the most friendly aluminium alloy, it is very easy to get a ragged finish, that needs a lot of tidying up. The tidying up process (thread knurling, combing or rolling) can lead to dimensional inaccuracy. Wilson 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 24, 2015 Share #72 Posted March 24, 2015 Come to think of it, isn't most the focussing interiors of Leica lenses made of brass? That's what I've rather assumed (probably incorrectly). Do the anodised aluminium components of a standard M lens comprise threaded surfaces that actually mate with the brass helicoids or are they just limited to the body/structure of the lens – i.e. the parts that just hold bits together? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted March 24, 2015 Share #73 Posted March 24, 2015 If you browse for it you will see that it's a mixture of many metals and lubricants... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 24, 2015 Share #74 Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Ian, I think it is just the outer sleeves and the rotating collars for focus and aperture that are alternatively brass or aluminium alloy but the threads on the inside of the outer sleeve will have a significant job to hold the brass inner sleeves in the correct relationship and/or determine the geometry of the lens. If you look at the differences in weight between brass and aluminium versions of the same lens, it must be a significant proportion of the metal in the lens, which is the different alloys (35 ASPH Summilux 250gr/415gr). Brass inner sleeves are certainly the case in the older Leica lenses I have seen disassembled (black anodised 50 Summicron II and MATE) but the latest ones may now have aluminium alloy inner sleeves as well. Wilson PS I have just found the cut away of the Summicron II and you can see there is not as much brass in it as I recalled. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 24, 2015 by wlaidlaw 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/242441-new-35-cron-and-50-lux-available-in-black-chrome/?do=findComment&comment=2786096'>More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted March 24, 2015 Share #75 Posted March 24, 2015 Equipment has had to justify itself throughout my photographic life and career. New equipment has had to deliver new opportunities; updates to equipment have had to deliver discernable improvements over existing equipment. Above all image and image qualities have been key. I’m not wealthy; price has always been a factor. For me the black chrome Lux would be a retrograde step in terms of handling – heavier and more viewfinder obstruction with hood – and a retrograde step as far as my wallet is concerned. In terms of image quality and qualities there would be no benefit. I welcome the new black chrome Lux as a means to swell Leica’s coffers. I am not adverse to change if it delivers benefit. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fussgangerfoto Posted March 24, 2015 Share #76 Posted March 24, 2015 I am ambivalent on these lenses. It will likely preserve (or appreciate in) value. To me, the the 50 looks like a copy of a Voigtlander copy of a Leica lens. The design, according to Leica is "inspired" by the 1959 design. It is black chrome, not black paint, so it won't wear to the uber-cool brassed look Same optics as the ASPH-LUX, so no difference in performance. Longer, heavier, more finder blockage. You'll be the only one on your block if you have one... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 24, 2015 Share #77 Posted March 24, 2015 I have just put an offer in on a standard black 35 ASPH Summicron. I decided on this due to both price and weight. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 27, 2015 Share #78 Posted March 27, 2015 I got a new 35 ASPH black anodised Summicron for £1680 including the hood and cap. I am sure it is a lens that will see a lot of use. OTOH I am not sure how much use my rather heavy chrome 35 ASPH Summilux is going to get now. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 28, 2015 Share #79 Posted March 28, 2015 I got a new 35 ASPH black anodised Summicron for £1680 including the hood and cap. I am sure it is a lens that will see a lot of use. OTOH I am not sure how much use my rather heavy chrome 35 ASPH Summilux is going to get now. The quintessential Leica lens IMO and a good price. Was that new with VAT invoice or as-new 'second hand'? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 28, 2015 Share #80 Posted March 28, 2015 Ian, It was ex-display cabinet but not ex-demo. It will come with a full new registration warranty, box, paperwork etc, as it comes from a Leica Boutique. The price includes VAT. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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