The REAL M-240 sample images - congrats to Jono Slack

[Lindolfi]

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Thanks Rick for helping to lift the fog. Although in photography fog can create nice 3D effects, it is not helping here to look at the M 240

[jonoslack]

What do you mean with "You can set them up as you want"?

Will there be a jpeg option "Leica look"?

 

I'd prefer the jpegs to have "Leica look".

Actually, even a profile for Lightroom and raw files (shown in LR) should have a "Leica look".

I believe Leica should always start with the "Leica look".

 

...and than whoever wants to play with raw files can take the "leica look" off and use the advantage of dynamic range and whatever else cmos' "flat" image has to give.

 

Hi there Tomas

In the camera, under jpg settings, you can choose contrast, saturation, sharpness. Once you have set them they will remain unless you change them (you can set up 4 profiles with different settings )

I set these up to Low values to show off the dynamic range and detail.

You could set them up to mid/high. Which would give you that Leica look you so much value.

 

All the best

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[Thomas Chen]

Hi there Tomas

In the camera, under jpg settings, you can choose contrast, saturation, sharpness. Once you have set them they will remain unless you change them (you can set up 4 profiles with different settings )

I set these up to Low values to show off the dynamic range and detail.

You could set them up to mid/high. Which would give you that Leica look you so much value.

 

All the best

 

Jono (and gentlemen in M240 development team),

Now you get my point!. I have already done this for the M8 file posted on Flichr the other day. Otherwise, the M8 IQ will be beyond description.

Please patiently read the following story as it seriously matters and also is the reason why I argue so much.

I’ve a friend, a CEO and the President of Photography Society holding photo annual show.

He has D-Lux 3, M6, M7 and last year bought a M9 after consulting with me. Soon later he purchased a Sony Nex 7 and Zeiss lenses, in his e-mail (we live in different city) he told me the JPEG IQ of Sony+Zeiss is better than M9 !!!!!! This January I recommended him the D-Lux 6. He told me that IQ of D-lux 6 is better than Sony+Zeiss, and has no courage to compare M9 with them again. Now the relationship became:

D-Lux 6 > Sony NEX 7+Zeiss > M9+Leica M lense

Does this makes sense ?.

So I asked him sending me the M9 JPEG file taken at Southern France village ( I guess that he always use M9 the same way he use M7, making no any adjustment). Ahah ! flat, vague, crisp not, something identical to the JPEG IQ I got straight out of M8 with sharpness, contrast, saturation set at neutral position. I dare to say they are much inferior to the JPEG file straight out of D-Lux 4, 5, and 6.

Why ?

So I set saturation, sharpness, and contrast at “medium high”, now come out the “Leica Look” that I and Jono agree with. But is there without any problem? Setting saturation at “medium high” gives the JPEG image rendering a strong shade of yellow cast. Chrome yellow color turns into pale yellow, thus the chromatic and tonality balance becomes quite strange in some scenes, especially those having trees with many green leaves or lawn of large area.

Jono just told me he always set those parameters as low for higher dynamic. Perhaps that’s the root cause why for JPEG IQ,

D-Lux 6 > Sony NEX 7+Zeiss > M9+Leica lense !

I guess that when developed the compact camera, Leica and Sony assumed consumer-type customers always use the JPEG file, while when Leica developed M digital camera, she assumed that the major market segment is experts such as Jono and Chris who always employ DNG files for post-processing. Thus, IQ of straight JPEG file weighs less or even doesn’t matter. And perhaps product managers for D-Lux and M digital in Leica are too busy to make a cross check about products in different line.

Why don’t consumer-type customers complain toward JPEG IQ out of M digital ? Well, you know the story of Anderson’s “Emperor’s New Clothes”. In my part of world, Leica is a sacred cow, the response of the complaint could be: “Nuts ! Spending so much money for that lousy outcomes ? ” or “What do you want ? you are using the best camera in the world”. Therefore, the best way to save face for the embarrassing consumer is keeping mouth shut, like what I did in the past few years.

Am I satisfied with the JPEG file with sharpness and contrast set as “medium high” and saturation at neutral in M8? Okey for most cases but not always. I would say 5 stops for each parameter adjustment may be insufficient to produce the best outcomes possible. (Please don’t expect consumer customers do well in moving such many slide bars in LR 4). Is it possible to make a 7 stops scale? (PENTAX K5 II features a fantastic human-machine interface, you may just have a look. It is of 9-stops adjustment flexibility)

I’m quite satisfied with the color rendering in Mr. Gaumy’s 2nd batch JPEG file (but file size is too small to peep into the details or Leica Look). How about set sharpness and contrast as “ + 0.7 stop / 5 stops” or “ + 1 stop / 7 stops” in the firmware. I believe that the “Leica look” of this sort could be closer to that of M6, better than M8 (M9 ?). After your evaluation, if this act is OK, please makes the settings as default.

Thanks for your time to listen to the voice of a loyal Leica consumer-type customer.

All the best,

Thomas Chen

[AlanJW]

The "Leica look" and the "3D" and the jpeg stuff is just pulling our leg, right? I honestly can't tell if this is serious or if we are being punked.

 

I think you're on to something. Or it is a test of our equanimity.

[andybarton]

I guess that when developed the compact camera, Leica and Sony assumed consumer-type customers always use the JPEG file, while when Leica developed M digital camera, she assumed that the major market segment is experts such as Jono and Chris who always employ DNG files for post-processing. Thus, IQ of straight JPEG file weighs less or even doesn’t matter.

 

I wouldn't have said that Leica would say that jpg output "doesn't matter", but then most people who spend Leica money on Leica M cameras do take a much greater interest in the output from their cameras than simply accepting a few pre-sets on an 8-bit file that an unknown programmer decides is correct. This goes for people who spend Leica money on Canons and Sony Alphas and Nikons too, btw.

 

Using a film analogy, if that's still relevant, most people who spend serious money on camera equipment are prepared to spend a little time in a virtual darkroom (such as Lightroom or Aperture), to get the best from their equipment, just as lots of keen amateurs used to spend time in the real darkroom with black and white film.

 

Compact camera users are generally more in line with those who used to shoot colour print film, where all the processing was handled by the chemist shop or third party processor.

 

There are very few people here who use jpgs from their cameras for anything other than a quick check.

 

Don't forget that your idea of what the "Leica look" is, might be completely different from someone else's idea. It is far better to spend half an hour in Lightroom or Aperture, building a profile to give the results as YOU want them, so that can be applied to all your shots, rather than reply on what someone else thinks is what you want.

Edited February 14, 2013 by andybarton

[IWC Doppel]

Jono (and gentlemen in M240 development team),

 

Now you get my point!. I have already done this for the M8 file posted on Flichr the other day. Otherwise, the M8 IQ will be beyond description.

 

Please patiently read the following story as it seriously matters and also is the reason why I argue so much.

 

I’ve a friend, a CEO and the President of Photography Society holding photo annual show.

He has D-Lux 3, M6, M7 and last year bought a M9 after consulting with me. Soon later he purchased a Sony Nex 7 and Zeiss lenses, in his e-mail (we live in different city) he told me the JPEG IQ of Sony+Zeiss is better than M9 !!!!!! This January I recommended him the D-Lux 6. He told me that IQ of D-lux 6 is better than Sony+Zeiss, and has no courage to compare M9 with them again. Now the relationship became:

 

D-Lux 6 > Sony NEX 7+Zeiss > M9+Leica M lense

 

Does this makes sense ?.

 

So I asked him sending me the M9 JPEG file taken at Southern France village ( I guess that he always use M9 the same way he use M7, making no any adjustment). Ahah ! flat, vague, crisp not, something identical to the JPEG IQ I got straight out of M8 with sharpness, contrast, saturation set at neutral position. I dare to say they are much inferior to the JPEG file straight out of D-Lux 4, 5, and 6.

 

Why ?

 

So I set saturation, sharpness, and contrast at “medium high”, now come out the “Leica Look” that I and Jono agree with. But is there without any problem? Setting saturation at “medium high” gives the JPEG image rendering a strong shade of yellow cast. Chrome yellow color turns into pale yellow, thus the chromatic and tonality balance becomes quite strange in some scenes, especially those having trees with many green leaves or lawn of large area.

 

Jono just told me he always set those parameters as low for higher dynamic. Perhaps that’s the root cause why for JPEG IQ,

D-Lux 6 > Sony NEX 7+Zeiss > M9+Leica lense !

 

I guess that when developed the compact camera, Leica and Sony assumed consumer-type customers always use the JPEG file, while when Leica developed M digital camera, she assumed that the major market segment is experts such as Jono and Chris who always employ DNG files for post-processing. Thus, IQ of straight JPEG file weighs less or even doesn’t matter. And perhaps product managers for D-Lux and M digital in Leica are too busy to make a cross check about products in different line.

 

Why don’t consumer-type customers complain toward JPEG IQ out of M digital ? Well, you know the story of Anderson’s “Emperor’s New Clothes”. In my part of world, Leica is a sacred cow, the response of the complaint could be: “Nuts ! Spending so much money for that lousy outcomes ? ” or “What do you want ? you are using the best camera in the world”. Therefore, the best way to save face for the embarrassing consumer is keeping mouth shut, like what I did in the past few years.

 

Am I satisfied with the JPEG file with sharpness and contrast set as “medium high” and saturation at neutral in M8? Okey for most cases but not always. I would say 5 stops for each parameter adjustment may be insufficient to produce the best outcomes possible. (Please don’t expect consumer customers do well in moving such many slide bars in LR 4). Is it possible to make a 7 stops scale? (PENTAX K5 II features a fantastic human-machine interface, you may just have a look. It is of 9-stops adjustment flexibility)

 

I’m quite satisfied with the color rendering in Mr. Gaumy’s 2nd batch JPEG file (but file size is too small to peep into the details or Leica Look). How about set sharpness and contrast as “ + 0.7 stop / 5 stops” or “ + 1 stop / 7 stops” in the firmware. I believe that the “Leica look” of this sort could be closer to that of M6, better than M8 (M9 ?). After your evaluation, if this act is OK, please makes the settings as default.

 

Thanks for your time to listen to the voice of a loyal Leica consumer-type customer.

 

All the best,

 

Thomas Chen

 

 

 

I personally would like minor adjustements to set how I want the jpg's to be set (I get sufficient adjustment with my M9) and a good starting point (Which I find to be the case and use B&W, std, std) I don't want a post processing engine to be available in my camera for a whole heap of reasons. If a serious photographer does not understand or want to understand an expensive specialist camera like the M8/9/10 before acquiring I don't have a lot of sympathy tbh.

 

For those looking for a digital M point and shoot, perhaps the dealer can help set it up (I am saying this cringing at the thought) or sell something different (X2 ?). Even the most automated camera's require a few minutes to read the manual and some time to gain an understanding of how to use in practice

[Thomas Chen]

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I wouldn't have said that Leica would say that jpg output "doesn't matter", but then most people who spend Leica money on Leica M cameras do take a much greater interest in the output from their cameras than simply accepting a few pre-sets on an 8-bit file that an unknown programmer decides is correct. This goes for people who spend Leica money on Canons and Sony Alphas and Nikons too, btw.

 

Using a film analogy, if that's still relevant, most people who spend serious money on camera equipment are prepared to spend a little time in a virtual darkroom (such as Lightroom or Aperture), to get the best from their equipment, just as lots of keen amateurs used to spend time in the real darkroom with black and white film.

 

Compact camera users are generally more in line with those who used to shoot colour print film, where all the processing was handled by the chemist shop or third party processor.

 

There are very few people here who use jpgs from their cameras for anything other than a quick check.

 

Don't forget that your idea of what the "Leica look" is, might be completely different from someone else's idea. It is far better to spend half an hour in Lightroom or Aperture, building a profile to give the results as YOU want them, so that can be applied to all your shots, rather than reply on what someone else thinks is what you want.

 

Thanks, good idea !

[AlanJW]

Thomas if the same time you took to write your long posts was invested in learning how to deal with raw files, perhaps you would understand what people are talking about. If you want an M camera as a point and shoot, you can use it that way but you are seriously overpaying and would be better off with a DLux or a Sony Rx100, or even a Canon Elph. You insist you know that Leica's audience is rich lazy people and that Leica is failing them if m240 jpgs don't have what you deem to be the "Leica look". That is just flat out wrong, and I for one don't want Leica to cater to that market. If you want to say that Sony jpgs or DLux6 jpgs look better to you than M240 jpgs that is your right and your opinion should drive what camera you buy. But you keep repeatedly and at length belaboring the same jpg point as if repetition will persuade others. You only need to persuade yourself and if you are disappointed about inadequate jpgs coming out of a M240, I would cancel your order and use the money for something you will like better.

Edited February 14, 2013 by WeinschelA

[Thomas Chen]

I personally would like minor adjustements to set how I want the jpg's to be set (I get sufficient adjustment with my M9) and a good starting point (Which I find to be the case and use B&W, std, std)

 

Agree!

 

Thanks for your advice.

[wok64]

Bad news: I was intending to attend a one day Leica Workshop featuring the Leica M next week (Feb 23). Today I got the infromation from Leica Akademie that it had to be postponed to May because firmware is not yet final. So it seems we still have to wait a bit until the M gets to the dealers.

 

On the positive side it's another sign that Leica really wants to get this product in good shape.

 

I hope I didn't spoil your day,

Wolfgang

[jonoslack]

Hi Andy

Hi Thomas

I wouldn't have said that Leica would say that jpg output "doesn't matter", but then most people who spend Leica money on Leica M cameras do take a much greater interest in the output from their cameras than simply accepting a few pre-sets on an 8-bit file that an unknown programmer decides is correct. This goes for people who spend Leica money on Canons and Sony Alphas and Nikons too, btw.

You're right Andy

Leica do care very much about the jpg quality. Lots of their users do use jpg, added to which you can now use the jpg settings to define how the playback works on the LCD.

Thomas

The default JPG settings are defined to produce the best quality image (which doesn't quite equate to the 'Leica Look' you have defined)

It would not be sensible to default it to produce a lower quality but 'snappier' image like that on the d-lux 6. People would shout and scream just like you are, but there would be more of them, and they would have good reason!

All the best

[Thomas Chen]

Thomas if the same time you took to write your long posts was invested in learning how to deal with raw files, perhaps you would understand what people are talking about. If you want an M camera as a point and shoot, you can use it that way but you are seriously overpaying and would be better off with a DLux or a Sony Rx100, or even a Canon Elph. You insist you know that Leica's audience is rich lazy people and that Leica is failing them if m240 jpgs don't have what you deem to be the "Leica look". That is just flat out wrong, and I for one don't want Leica to cater to that market. If you want to say that Sony jpgs or DLux6 jpgs look better to you than M240 jpgs that is your right and your opinion should drive what camera you buy. But you keep repeatedly and at length belaboring the same jpg point as if repetition will persuade others. You only need to persuade yourself and if you are disappointed about inadequate jpgs coming out of a M240, I would cancel your order and use the money for something you will like better.

 

Alan,

 

In fact I have done all I want say as a consumer-type customers based on what I know about my peers in the other part of world.

 

Every photographer no matter novice or veteran dreams for a Leica M, a laurel in photography. Owning a M indicates that he will devote himself in photography and he is after the execellence in photography.

 

 

With the passion toward photography, we have a dream to become an expert photographer like you who know everything and who are able to come out everything as wished. However, it takes times and efforts to be so.

 

Lots of external intervention in the real world prevent us from doing so. And M digital photography obviously is harder than the film one.Thus, having a good starting point such as good JPEG output seems to be a reasonable and practical approach to encourage us keeping going on, while in the process we can strive to learn the advanced post-processing skill.

 

My outspeaking may be an annoyance in your eyes, however, it's the real voice of many Leica perspective customers in our world, take into account of language barrier and the support from a qualified dealer. What I'm doing is just trying to make a contribution to Leica business developmentme in the emerging market, nothing else.

 

I naively suppose that the forum is for all Leica customers no matter expert or consumer customers where everything can be discussed in a gentleman way. If I'm regarded as a trouble maker then I would sooner opt for making no presence.

 

Anyway I sincerely appreciate all of your advices that extend my knowledge horizon so much.

 

 

 

Thank you again.

 

Thomas Chen

[Thomas Chen]

Hi Andy

Hi Thomas

 

You're right Andy

Leica do care very much about the jpg quality. Lots of their users do use jpg, added to which you can now use the jpg settings to define how the playback works on the LCD.

Thomas

The default JPG settings are defined to produce the best quality image (which doesn't quite equate to the 'Leica Look' you have defined)

It would not be sensible to default it to produce a lower quality but 'snappier' image like that on the d-lux 6. People would shout and scream just like you are, but there would be more of them, and they would have good reason!

All the best

 

Thanks Jono, it is realy an area that I cannot figure out.

[jonoslack]

Thus, having a good starting point such as good JPEG output seems to be a reasonable and practical approach to encourage us keeping going on

 

HI Thomas

But it DOES have good jpg output - technically much better than that from the D-lux - you are quite entitled to your different preference, but you shouldn't assume that 'good' for you is the same as 'good' for others - or, indeed, empirically 'good'

 

all the best

[Peter H]

Thomas, it doesn't take an expert photographer with years of experience to take an M9 DNG and with a little experimentation in Lightroom produce a photograph at least as pleasing as any jpeg the camera can be expected to produce from a pre-set list of adjustments that it applies indiscriminately to all photos.

 

It would be nice if everyone was able to produce beautiful photos with no effort whatsoever. I see no intrinsic artistic merit in hard work.

 

But the fact is its not possible, so if you are going to take photography at all seriously, why not make the small effort required; not just to try to take the photo you want, but to process it according to your tastes?

[andybarton]

.

 

Every photographer no matter novice or veteran dreams for a Leica M, a laurel in photography. Owning a M indicates that he will devote himself in photography and he is after the execellence in photography.

 

I don't think that the first sentence is actually correct, but if an M owner is after excellence in photography as you say (which probably will be true in most cases), then he or she will striving to get the best from their DNG conversions, not relying on jpgs.

[IWC Doppel]

I really dislike computers and get awfully bored reading manuals, but there are a lot of good books, great video's and a super forum. We all know it's the 'shot' or capturing the original image that makes or breaks a photograph. Learning how to get the best out of that original vision and 'click' is for most intuitive, and ultimately your judgement is the decider, you only have to see what a number of individuals did with the first round of Jono DNG's.

 

The best money you could spend if you did own a high end camera would be on a course / book / tuition to get the best out of your investment.

 

I spent some time trying to get a better B&W image from a home processed DNG with LR than my M9 B&W jpg !

[AlanJW]

Alan,

 

With the passion toward photography, we have a dream to become an expert photographer like you who know everything and who are able to come out everything as wished.

 

Thomas Chen

 

I never said I knew everything and in fact I know far less than many others on this forum. I'm also not the only one suggesting you learn something about processing if you want to get the best out of a $7,000 camera. I'm not trying to be condescending. But you truly have a one track mind about this.

[pgk]

Thus, having a good starting point such as good JPEG output seems to be a reasonable and practical approach to encourage us keeping going on, while in the process we can strive to learn the advanced post-processing skill.

Thomas

 

The point is that a JPEG file is simply ONE interpretation of the RAW files from which it is derived. If you don't want to adjust files and leave them just as shot in the camera then simply opening a RAW file without adjustment will pretty much do just this.

 

But JPEGs are rather inflexible files which soon show up flaws if adjusted significantly. RAW files on the other hand are just the starting point. They can be interpreted and reinterpreted; as RAW interpretation software becomes better old RAW files can be revisited and interpreted yet again to produce even better image files. And RAW files are flexible and remain intact ready for more interpretations, whilst allowing numerous, often substantial, adjustments which can be output and saved as JPEGs. Personally I have not shot JPEGs since I first got my M8. Learning to use RAW files is IMHO now an essential part of the photographic process.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mirekti]

Bad news: I was intending to attend a one day Leica Workshop featuring the Leica M next week (Feb 23). Today I got the infromation from Leica Akademie that it had to be postponed to May because firmware is not yet final. So it seems we still have to wait a bit until the M gets to the dealers.

 

Will that have impact to the production of the camera?

I mean, this might be a bad news for some, but on the other hand it might mean that many more people will receive the camera with it's first shippment.