working Ur-Leica?

[Ambro51]

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Barnack also used this type counter on Prototype 3.  Interesting here is how it’s position relative the wind knob/shaft has changed.   Inside the UR this shaft has an odd oval hole no doubt a player in the film counter.   BTW a quick look at the VIDOM article suggest Oberlander made perhaps five, maybe ten...and all were destined to various museums and institutions.   Few details on the camera or it’s optic or it’s abilities are given. So perhaps photographic useability was Far down on the list, instead the desired result being a display that functioned.  I’ll do a full translation shortly and will post.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Ambro51

[wlaidlaw]

There was an UR copy in the Photography Museum in Chalons-sur-Saone. I visited it a few times in 2003/4, when I had a house nearby, in the Burgundy region. I suspect this was a Leica made dummy that someone had artificially "distressed" it by brassing it with wet and dry paper. I suppose it is possible it could have been one of Oberlander's UR cameras. I could not remember if the National Science and Media Museum in Bradford, UK had one amongst the various early Leicas that they have on display and in their collection. On checking their collection, I have found they do have a repro UR.

Wilson

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[Ambro51]

One project I’m plannjng is a few simple film cassettes,  reloadsble, which will fit into the narrower UR available space.  Since there’s no provision for rewind, the film will just spool out.  I’d put a hard angle fold onto the tail end of the film...easily heard when film runs out.   This would be Daylight loading,  but unloading would. be in darkbag or darkroom.  My best notion is the reworking of discarded 35 cassettes, with new top and bottoms from plastic, I’d just turn these out on the lathe. This would let you go afield and reload a lot easier, just like any Leica.  Just open the camera in the darkbag, drop the takeup spool, rewind the film off the spool and put in a lightproof film container!  EZ

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Edited December 9, 2018 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

Should work.

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[jerzy]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb George Furst:

I highly doubt that he made these UR Leicas from scratch.

until I will find another evidence I have no reason  to put in question what the article says.

Having it in my hands I will open the lens as well, we'll see if there will be any marks allowing for identification what he used

[wlaidlaw]

7 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

Should work.

A possibility would be to use one of the smaller (?20 exposure) Tessina 35mm cassettes. Igor's Camera in the USA normally has a few of these in stock. 

Wilson

PS Your camera is #80. Is this from reading off the base plate, as my camera also shows the number 80 on the base plate? Makes me wonder if this is a part number or code rather the serial number of the camera. I will post a photo of the inside of my base plate later today. W

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[wlaidlaw]

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2 hours ago, jerzy said:

until I will find another evidence I have no reason  to put in question what the article says.

Having it in my hands I will open the lens as well, we'll see if there will be any marks allowing for identification what he used

Jerzy,

Unless there is an NDA or no photos agreement for the Oberlander camera, it would be great if you could post some photos of the exterior and interior. 

Wilson

[George Furst]

15 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

One project I’m plannjng is a few simple film cassettes,  reloadsble, which will fit into the narrower UR available space.  Since there’s no provision for rewind, the film will just spool out.  I’d put a hard angle fold onto the tail end of the film...easily heard when film runs out.   This would be Daylight loading,  but unloading would. be in darkbag or darkroom.  My best notion is the reworking of discarded 35 cassettes, with new top and bottoms from plastic, I’d just turn these out on the lathe. This would let you go afield and reload a lot easier, just like any Leica.  Just open the camera in the darkbag, drop the takeup spool, rewind the film off the spool and put in a lightproof film container!  EZ

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I really like your idea Ambro51. I too have thought of making a cassette for the UR. I have put allot of thought into this. My ideas ran along similar to your ideas except I have a way to wind the film back into the cassette and thereby avoid the dark room unloading. Not that I find this dark bag unloading onerous but when in the field it does become alittle inconvenient. The few times that I have done this using the dark bag attrected a few spectators and one time a police man Leaned over my shoulder and watched intently. With both hands deep in the bag I was in an awkward position and broke out into a cold sweat. I still do not know what he said but he stayed around until I pulled the rabbit out of the bag and went on his way! I’m just glad that I did not choose to do this on my lap as I am sure I would be in jail now! 

My idea is to use the screw built into the top area of the UR. Why not unscrew and remove this when the film is exposed and use a tool to connect to the enclosed film spool and wind the film back into your cassette. After removing the cassette you could put the screw back into the top plate and load another cassette. Of course this means that you must have a film spool inside the cassette. I have always wondered why the screw is there but now I know that Barnack was thinking ahead to do just this and then WW l came along and he was put onto high priority war time projects like the binoculars that are fitted to the helmet! Than by the time the war ended he was onto other camera designs culminating with the 1a revolution. 

[wlaidlaw]

29 minutes ago, George Furst said:

I have always wondered why the screw is there but now I know that Barnack was thinking ahead to do just this and then WW l came along and he was put onto high priority war time projects like the binoculars that are fitted to the helmet! Than by the time the war ended he was onto other camera designs culminating with the 1a revolution. 

George, 

Do you know if anything ever came of the helmet mounted binoculars? Most WW1 German military binoculars one comes across are either made by Voigtlander, Goertz, Zeiss or Spindler & Hoyer. 

Wilson

[Ambro51]

The Tessina cassettes look to be the answer here.   Not cheap, but with about 3-4 you should be set.   And most come with a dandy aluminum screw top can .The shaft that holds the supply spool comes out easily.  If I were to find the cassette system (probably the tessina as the light leak issue is solved) to be a winner, I’ll pull that shaft and just put a nut behind to hold the top screw in place  One issue is that the shaft is not centered within the case/crate area.  A free floating cassette without contact to this Miss centered thing will work best.  Also Tessina has a film winder setup!!!   Search eBay •••••••ps..as the one in the photo below was the least expensive on eBay, I just hit the BIN.  For 15$ worth the trial.

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Edited December 10, 2018 by Ambro51

[George Furst]

15 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

George, 

Do you know if anything ever came of the helmet mounted binoculars? Most WW1 German military binoculars one comes across are either made by Voigtlander, Goertz, Zeiss or Spindler & Hoyer. 

Wilson

I really know nothing about the helmet mounted binoculars except the pictures of it on Oskar Barnack that I am sure your too have seen. I do not know if it was used or not as I have never seen anyone, except Barnack, wearing it during the war. I am sure it was one of many projects that were assigned to Barnack and I believe that he was very busy thinking of items to support his country. Sorry as I wish I could provide more information for you on this item and its use.

[Ambro51]

The Tessina cassette arrived today.  The good news is that at 11/16” diameter is easily fits the UR opening.  The camera does indeed spool all the film out of it properly.  The inner shaft unneeded for our purposes, the top and bottom opening covered with black tape.  The UR spool shaft needs to be removed.  The Bad news,.....tightly wound film 18” long can be put in.  I’d tape on a separate leader to conserve film. So...in theory and practice this does work.  Cassettes slightly larger, but smaller than standard, would work as well.   This cassette  is fully made from (Swiss) plastic.

 

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Edited December 14, 2018 by Ambro51

[semi-ambivalent]

On 12/9/2018 at 4:04 PM, Ambro51 said:

One project I’m plannjng is a few simple film cassettes,  reloadsble, which will fit into the narrower UR available space.  Since there’s no provision for rewind, the film will just spool out.  I’d put a hard angle fold onto the tail end of the film...easily heard when film runs out.   This would be Daylight loading,  but unloading would. be in darkbag or darkroom.  My best notion is the reworking of discarded 35 cassettes, with new top and bottoms from plastic, I’d just turn these out on the lathe. This would let you go afield and reload a lot easier, just like any Leica.  Just open the camera in the darkbag, drop the takeup spool, rewind the film off the spool and put in a lightproof film container!  EZ

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I just want to say here that I have a tremendous amount of respect for 'you types' who tinker with these things. Just as I have a tremendous amount of respect  for those who still tinker with developer formulas from a hundred years ago. It's a beautiful shout back at those who can say only 'Oh, do they still make film?'

ps - You have the fingernails of a tinkerer.

[George Furst]

I, for one, would be very interested in purchasing these cassettes modified to fit the UR. It is relatively easy to unload the UR in the dark but not always so easy to correctly load the camera in the dark. I have done this for a few years now and put through my two URs over 160 rolls of film (usually 36 exposure) and know about this difficulty firsthand. Sometimes the film does not feed correctly and with this camera there is no rewind knob available to check that the film is feeding correctly. What I have learned to do is after loading the film, I wind a few frames onto the take up spool and feel the film feeding spool at the same time. If I feel the feeding spool move as I wind the film, I know that the film is moving through the camera correctly. I then screw the bottom plate onto the camera. I have learned to do this after taking at least 50 pictures and still there is no rattle when I shake the camera. I had this problem at the Leica gathering in Wetzlar and lost a number of important pictures. Luckily I had three URs with me and was able to get the pictures with them. I have also learned to always have my dark bag with me on long trips to check that the film is feeding correctly. 

I also wish to correct my prior statement about rewinding the film back into the cassette. This cannot be done on the replicas we have made here in Korea (and I doubt any of the replicas) as the ratchet in the base of the film sprocket does not allow the sprocket to go in the other direction and therefor the film to go in the other direction. This must be done to rewind the film into the cassette. I look forward to the tinkerers above making cassettes for my beloved Barnack historic UR Replicas, my favorite cameras!

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, George Furst said:

I, for one, would be very interested in purchasing these cassettes modified to fit the UR. It is relatively easy to unload the UR in the dark but not always so easy to correctly load the camera in the dark. I have done this for a few years now and put through my two URs over 160 rolls of film (usually 36 exposure) and know about this difficulty firsthand. Sometimes the film does not feed correctly and with this camera there is no rewind knob available to check that the film is feeding correctly. What I have learned to do is after loading the film, I wind a few frames onto the take up spool and feel the film feeding spool at the same time. If I feel the feeding spool move as I wind the film, I know that the film is moving through the camera correctly. I then screw the bottom plate onto the camera. I have learned to do this after taking at least 50 pictures and still there is no rattle when I shake the camera. I had this problem at the Leica gathering in Wetzlar and lost a number of important pictures. Luckily I had three URs with me and was able to get the pictures with them. I have also learned to always have my dark bag with me on long trips to check that the film is feeding correctly. 

I also wish to correct my prior statement about rewinding the film back into the cassette. This cannot be done on the replicas we have made here in Korea (and I doubt any of the replicas) as the ratchet in the base of the film sprocket does not allow the sprocket to go in the other direction and therefor the film to go in the other direction. This must be done to rewind the film into the cassette. I look forward to the tinkerers above making cassettes for my beloved Barnack historic UR Replicas, my favorite cameras!

George, 

As I mentioned in a post above, Igorcamera often has Tessina cassettes for sale. 

Wilson

[Ambro51]

The drawback on the tessina cartridge is it only holds 18” of film. This is my finding on this.   Ideally we need a cassette 13/16” maximum diameter.   But in reality if you’re working with a darkroom where you can sit down and concentrate on proper loading this is your best bet.  George has the habit of walking miles up and down Mountains, so he Needs cassettes. 😉Oh and to add.....like any Barnack Leica, the UR needs the leader trimmed.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

Well.....I’m going to change my mind here and endorse the use of Tessina reloadable cassettes in the UR Leica.  Turns out, it’s weak point (small for the chamber) turns out to be its strong point.  As George pointed out long ago, your ears are important in operating the UR.   It’s particular weak point being No indication film is actually advancing.   The plastic cassette “clicks”, as you wind and pull film, you can hear it.    The Massive Good Point, is you can see your film riding forward properly in the sprockets, and advancing while daylight  loading!!    Rolling tight, about 28” of film can Squeeze it.     I did remove the supply side shaft and put a nut on the screw.   The tessina cartridges are used by removing the center spool, and securely covering both ends with lightproof tape.  I used a little bit of black duct tape.    Unloading?  Pull of my A2 leather coat, wrap up the camera, hands, empty tessina aluminum can...drop the backplate. Pull take up spool ,unspool respool and put in can.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

I’ve finally had time to put some TriX through working UR Leica #80, and was extremely pleased with all aspects of the camera and its images.   I Did make a mistake, reloading the first roll (that George had loaded in), assuming it was done, getting confused in the darkroom and mis cut the leader.  It seems the cut hit and very slightly damaged the shutter curtain, leaving a few pinholes for light to go through.   Howefully my applications of very thin layers of flexible fabric glue and lampblack will take care of this.   Meanwhile, a Photo!

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[Ambro51]

....and another.   The 42mm Summar is very sharp 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[George Furst]

On 1/17/2019 at 8:43 AM, Ambro51 said:

I’ve finally had time to put some TriX through working UR Leica #80, and was extremely pleased with all aspects of the camera and its images.   I Did make a mistake, reloading the first roll (that George had loaded in), assuming it was done, getting confused in the darkroom and mis cut the leader.  It seems the cut hit and very slightly damaged the shutter curtain, leaving a few pinholes for light to go through.   Howefully my applications of very thin layers of flexible fabric glue and lampblack will take care of this.   Meanwhile, a Photo!

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Thank you for sharing this UR Picture. Interesting juxtaposition of buildings here including the ladder and drain pipes. The 42mm lens really shines in a photo like this.Also your exposure is spot on. I think that Tri-X is a perfect film for the UR Replica Sorry about the mixup about the film.

As for you shutter curtain repair, remember that the diameter of the shutter drum with wound on shutter curtain is critical! When one collapses the lens there is a very small gap between the lens barrel stop and the barrel with shutter curtain. As long as your repairs were not in the middle of the curtain, there will be no problem. As a general rule I always advance the film, thus decreasing the shutter drum diameter, before I collapse the lens into the body. In this way you minimize the chance of rubbing the lens barrel stop flange against the shutter curtain. If this happens, you will see a little of the copper as a smudge on the curtain material.

This was one of the challenges that Mr. Kim had with the first UR Replica that he made. The space inside the camera body is very limited. This is especially true with the shutter barrel. Mr. Kim made a few barrels before he got the diameter right. Even then he warned me to be very careful when collapsing the the lens into the body. A smaller diameter shutter curtain barrel was not possible as there is a critical spring inside the barrel. The small diameter of the shutter barrel also minimized the chance of shutter bounce and also since inertia was minimized, there was little lag in the acceleration of the shutter when you press the shutter button. I always wondered if Barnack had the same problem and did he solve it in the same manner as Mr. Kim. Would be very interesting to know what the diameter of the shutter curtain barrel is in the original UR Camera of 1913-4.