working Ur-Leica?

[Ambro51]

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I know the purists cringe at this garage hot rodding of a Leica product, but they didn’t finish the job! You’re doing good and whatever works inside the camera to do the job is OK with me. I went through a few shutter attempts but finally “got it”. The problem is to use the limited shutter travel correctly. I ended up with an 8mm wide slit. It winds back far enough that it “hides” behind the film opening, then fires and winds just a bit past the other end of the film opening. Full frame is possible, at first I had trouble getting that but finally got the shutter cloth positioned right. Don’t worry at all about the shutter ahead of the film plane, it does not leak light. The big glitch I had was the take up roller was too great a diameter to roll back the shutter without rubbing on the camera body inside. All this has to work without friction or binding. Finally I pulled it out chucked it into my metal lathe and reduced its diameter slightly. This allowed the to roll back perfectly. Good Luck! PS the one big thing we have not been able to do is activate the film counter. It is said to operate with a simple rachet mechanism. I think the odd hole in the shaft (as seen above on the pic I posted of the part) is “part” of it but questions remain. Here’s a pic George sent on how the belt positions and what looks like counter pieces

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Edited September 5, 2018 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

The shutter is 35 mm wide. I used typewriter ribbon which was not ‘used’ but the ink dried up. Three lengths about 6 “ long (well trim later). I taped one strip by the ends to a piece of glass taut. Flexible fabric glue is laid in a 1/8” line and the next strip overlaps that much, fit and press then the next strip, to make it 35mm wide. Flatten this well and weight it so it dries Flat. •• The slit needs a very thin metal ‘frame’. Two uprights and two top and bottom pieces. After trying all types of things to get the ultrathin strong metal I used the side of an old pair of wire frame glasses, hammered flat, and Thin, 26mm long. The tops and bottom are .02 shim brass 1/16 wide 1/2” long. •• to create the slit, I lightly contact cemented these pieces and part of the cloth. Then in the middle of the shutter positioned the pieces to form the 8x24mm opening. Using a razor blade cut 2mm under the top and bottom shim strips then central down the opening. The cloth inside (all lightly contact cemented) is folded as close to the metal as possible, when it looks good, Really press this Flat. I put it between 2 wood blocks and squeeze in the vise. ••• The typewriter ribbon is not fully lightproof. Get “liquid electrical tape” (Napa) and give it three thin coats. You’ll see it get lightproof don’t overdo it we want Thin to be the guiding light here. ••• Positioning the slit it critical. In retrospect, here’s a method I’d try next time I make one : with the shutter dummy in place, overlay it with some masking tape (camera back flap off). Wind the shutter to fire position, then on the tape overlay make a mark 2mm inside the film opening. That’s the place you want your slit to Start. Then fire the shutter. Make a mark 2mm inside the other side of the film opening. You’ll see where the slit can start, and how far it can go back pulled by the tension roller. If you’ve covered the slit on both ends pre and post firing you’ve got it. Now when you remove the take up and tension rollers you’ve located references that show where the cloth ends need to end, and be glued to that position on the drums. Trials with a bit of tape are good. Hope all this helps.

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[frame-it]

just met Mr Kim in Seoul.... amazing guy dropped off my iiic for servicing.

 

 

i did see him working on a Leica UR, looked very interesting inside

 

 

he also showed me his handmade 6x7 MF camera that's smaller than a canon 5D...some gorgeous Velvia prints hanging in his office....he is not selling that camera unfortunately though he has started machining a new body for one more

 

 

Mr Kim, my camera technician, used to work in the watch industry so he has all the tools to make the gears for the working UR-Leica. He spent three months designing the upgrade to an operational camera. The challenges are many. First there is only a small location for the shutter. That means that the diameter of the drums for the shutter curtain are relatively small. That limits the size of shutter opening. In this case we went with an eight millimeter opening. We understand the original had a forty millimeter opening but can not understand how this can be. Also the films now are much faster than in 1913-14 when the original UR was constructed. Therefor the 8mm slit on the shutter curtain works out very well. The Leica O model has a 5 and a 10 mm slit available so the 8 mm is in between these two slit openings.

Another challenge was the spindles for the shutter. In this case one must provide a screw mount camera to supply the parts for the internal mechanisms. I gave Mr. Kim an old Leica IIIa that had a bad shutter curtain and cracked vulcanite covering. The other item needed is the 42mm macro Summar lens. As I said before this lens is available on eBay now. Everything else is already in the UR camera. Mr. Kim cut all the gears and parts not available in the UR plus donor camera. If you are interested in upgrading your UR camera to use it to experience UR photography, I would be willing to help have it done.

As I said I am very pleased with my working model. The gears work like those in a watch. Also Mr. Kim is a legend here and there was even a movie made about him so he always has film cameras on his desk.

[hoglundtw]

Ambro51 - thanks for all the advice.  Not going typewriter ribbon route. Rather, using the partial shutter it came with which has a full shutter curtain on the take up spool side, but then just thin ribbons on the top and bottom creating a way too wide opening all the way to the other roller. Completely non-functional as the effect was a 90mm wide slit with the film totally exposed whenever the camera was wound and you took the lens cap off.

 

So I cut off a piece of the shutter from my donor FED-1. Now I just need to hook the two together at the point of the slit. They both already have a thin vertical shim sewn onto the end of the shutter curtain which will form the vertical portions of the slit. I will use a short portion of the thin ribbon that I left attached to the original shutter and then sew and glue it to the donor camera side of the slit. 

 

I have tried it with masking tape holding it together and it looks like it will work, although I'm having the same problem you had of the metal shim being too thick for the take up roller to wind on quite as far as it should. Part of the slit is still overlapping the film window. I need to get one side of the slit onto the take-up roller so the other side clears the film window. So back to my trusty Dremel tool to sand down the diameter of the take-up roller a bit. I wish I had a lathe like you, but not really an option in a downtown condo.  

 

The key skill here is patience. I can't count how many times I have put various pieces in and taken them out, slowing working to adjust things and shape them the way they need to be to actually work. A couple of false tries on the take-up sprocket, but at least that's working now. Definitely a labor of love which will make it all the more satisfying when I am able to go out and take pictures with it like Oskar Barnack did 104 years ago (and you and George have done).

 

Tom

[Ambro51]

Ohhhh Yesssss. I took mine apart and put it back together what seemed like 500 times. I too tried the “add on” method to the dummy shutter and it was a failure. Mostly because it had too much bulk. Turning down the take up spool solved the problem....any machine shop can do this for you in five minutes. Actually, all the work I done with it made me realize the “historic” treatment would camo all the screw head ik. Don’t go too far in reducing the diameter. I’d say I took .030 off mine. Not much. Problem is without a lathe you’ll have high spots which will bind. So.....if you want to learn by my long trials....do the typewriter ribbon and Think Thin!!

[Ambro51]

it IS all worth the trouble. There are Five Million Leicas out there...but having a working UR is something different entirely. I’ve got the Zeiss Kino Tessar on my #9 Camera And could not be more pleased. I want this camera to be what Oskar intended, a small precise device to take pictures. You’ll love using the camera, and we are here to help you.

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Edited September 7, 2018 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

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....for inspiration! UR Leica #9. Zeiss Kino Tessar (1911) F 3.5 5 cm. Shot on Rollei 25 film F 5.6 1/250. Darkroom print

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[Ambro51]

One factor I hadn’t mentioned but is important for this all to work. At the base of the take up spool, above the gear, is a short thin steel pin. Pull this out with needle nose pliers and put it away. Now what happens is you are free to pull back the required length of shutter, which being directly part of the film advance means you will pull more film than usual as you wind your shutter back. It will “feel” longer than normal and it is. Ignore it. You’ll have about a cm between frames and will get 30 images on a 36 strip. This is the price to get the shutter opening advanced far enough to well hide, a bit more film advances. The goal is to match the full shutter travel to no more off the spool than the slit to have 2mm cover each side. You wind back all the shutter till is stops, as you fire the cloth goes across and as the 2mm is his the shutter is taut to the take up spool.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Ambro51

[Dopaco]

Interesting thread Worth following ...

Many thanks to all those who have contributed their explanations and experience to keep it interesting.

[Ambro51]

I heard from George today, he had been in Seoul and checked in with Mr. Kim, who has my #80 camera for professional conversion. It’s currently close to completion, though Mr. Kim was forced to deal with what he felt was poor construction internally. He found the film opening and track did not line up with the sprocket track and fabricated a new part. The machining and gears in the box look quite well made. The 42 Summar appears installed.

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[frame-it]

i was there last week..i saw Mr Kim working on your camera..amazing guy by the way.

 

 

I heard from George today, he had been in Seoul and checked in with Mr. Kim, who has my #80 camera for professional conversion. It’s currently close to completion, though Mr. Kim was forced to deal with what he felt was poor construction internally. He found the film opening and track did not line up with the sprocket track and fabricated a new part. The machining and gears in the box look quite well made. The 42 Summar appears installed.

[hoglundtw]

The sprockets not lining up with the film track was exactly the same problem I had with mine.  See my prior posts for how I cut a piece off the sprocket assembly from a donor camera to add about 6mm to the "bottom" (as you're working on the open upside down camera) and then cut 6mm off the top of the UR Leica sprocket assembly and reshaped to still have the requisite notch for winding the film.

Edited September 15, 2018 by hoglundtw

[Ambro51]

.....and no serial # inside? It would be on the underside of the top, or the baseplate. Trying to get a handle on “varieties”, or “”running changes” but soooo Little to go on. How did you make out so far? Getting lens in? •••••• Since a value to this thread is the archive of practical experience set down here, helping Future Brave Souls try and succeed in bringing Herr Barnacks Lilliput Kamera to Life. You’ll find it a camera of Unique Heritage, Sleek Handle and Honest Functionality.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Ambro51

[hoglundtw]

I made my shutter curtain from gluing (with fabric glue) and then sewing together the non-functional shutter curtain from the UR Leica replica (left side) to one half of the donor camera shutter curtain (right side). The Ur Leica original curtain was missing the entire right side and merely had really long ribbons to attach it to the tension roller. I cut these shorter to have just enough to overlap the right side curtain. 

 

I had the same problem Ambro51 had with there not being enough gap to roll the shutter on to the roller on the film take-up side.  Since I didn't have a lathe to reduce the diameter of the roller evenly, I bent the internal "cage" that also acts as the film guide and used a Dremel tool sander to reduce the width in certain places. Then I had to use a cutting disk to allow movement of the take-up sprocket gears which were binding against the cage after the bending and also cut a window on the supply side to allow for a larger diameter spool there. Pictures are before painting it flat black.

[intended to put a picture here but this forum's gallery says it can't upload another picture into my gallery and for the life of me can't figure out how to create a new gallery - am I only allowed three galleries at my membership level?]

 

I then had enough clearance for the take up roller to work, but wasn't getting enough tension from the tension spring roller to wind the shutter curtain back after pushing down on the shutter release. I tried wrapping the tension roller a bit tighter, didn't work, did it again, still not enough, then did it one more time and broke the spring inside the tension roller.    So now I have to steal a tension roller from the donor camera and somehow shape it down to fit in the UR Leica as it's way too tall and the screw thread on it is much bigger than on the "top" of the original UR Leica roller. 

 

Two steps forward, one step back. 

Edited September 15, 2018 by hoglundtw

[hoglundtw]

Hi Ambro51 - we must have been simultaneously posting this morning US time. No serial number anywhere on mine. The lens was the first thing I did, so that's all set. Unfortunately, the Mikro Summar doesn't fit into the dummy UR aperture, so had to remove that aperture and am using the aperture that came with the Mikro. I had taken that apart for cleaning and foolishly dropped out all the aperture blades, so that was a real pain to reassemble them, but I did it after some ingenuity of creating a bit of a guide to partially hold them in while I inserted the last few.

 

Got infinity focus working well. Had to stick a couple of large washers behind the lens in the assembly to space it so the aperture control dial lines up with the slot in the Ur lens casing. I still won't be able to easily change aperture as the tension is too high to do it through the slot without the lens rotating even after cleaning, but can quickly unscrew the front of the lens barrel, pop out lens and do it that way. I needed to put rubber O ring inside the camera on the end of the lens barrel to stop it from extending quite so far and with the two washers in back of lens itself have good infinity focus. 

[Ambro51]

Yes I used a very similar “longer” tension roller from a iIIc. I went through this too, in and out and repeat. Inside that is a long spring. I did shorten the shaft and roller, reshaped the shaft end ton”hold” in the angle. I had to drill a very small hole and reset the spring end into the shaft. It will work. The IIIc roller had 5X the pull power of the old ur dummy one. Still, I needed a very heavy preload on the roller before installing it. The shaft doesn’t rotate.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

I’d Cry if I had to reset iris blades on that tiny lens

[Ambro51]

Your powerdrill can function as a lathe of sorts, use a small file, you can reshape these things. The top of the FSU roller shaft needs to be turned down and then make it fit into the hole. Just a nice fit, round but no threads. Cut the shaft about 1mm longer than the UR dummy, this gives you some material to flare the bottom end, you can Always file it a little shorter when it’s all in and working. The roller has top and bottom caps and is a tube. I ended up cutting mine a bit to proper length but lost the cap on the bottom end. It does not seem to matter in operation. The cut end I flattened to a “screwdriver” type end and altered the angle hole to lock this in position. Installing into the camera meant turning the assembled shutter end 5 times counterclockwise to preload. Tricky to hold it in position to get the 2 screws in. ••••. Once you get past this you will begin to have troubles with the three gears. IF they are fully happy and working well resist ALL urge to fix them to ruin. The center pinion gear screw/shaft, and its threads into its base, is a weak point, but ! Oh so critical! To your shutter button working well. Check for intereference between the flat spring and the baseplate when tightened. I had to “scoop” mine out a bit with the dremel.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

One thing with the UR Leica....bad camera for a GAS attack...simply very little to “buy” for it. I did find a very nice, period appropriate clamp on Yellow filter. It fits the lens hood of the Zeiss Kino Tessar perfectly! Using a yellow filter can really improve a lot of BW images. And Yes Dear Reader, The Camera is loaded with Rollei 25, half the roll left. Wouldn’t you love to grab it and head out ?? ;-)

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Edited September 19, 2018 by Ambro51

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[mickjazz]

Ambro

 

You guys are amazing. I mean your focus on making a camera essentially from scratch. A camera is as simple as a box with film and a hole for light. What you're creating is what Barnack went through. A lot of trial and error.

 

Two questions. The zeiss kino. What camera was it for originally? And what does your UR weigh?