working Ur-Leica?

[Ambro51]

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The key part is this spool.  This controls the film height, the pull for the belt, and the shaped oblong hole which sits right behind the counter, and no doubt is part of its ratchet operation.  This is the spool from #9 which I converted to working.  The Small UR Replica drums cannot be used.  Donor drums off a regular SM Leica or maybe Zorki must be used as their drum contains enough spring power to pull the curtain far enough.  They are too large to fit though and need to be turned down on a lathe. The pin on the base of the wind shaft restricts curtain pull and is removed to allow the longer curtain to fully travel.  (That’s the First I’ve seen the round corner film opening.  Odd)

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This is what I learned but of course any concoction of things might through enough hair pulling and left handed innovation be made to work I suppose.  Edited March 18, 2021 by Ambro51

[zwieback]

Thank you for the explaination about the wind shaft. I though already that, maybe not the easiest but the most praktical would be to indeed swap out the wind shaft and film pully with replacements of a younger camera but than, it sould be like the original in this aspect. I proabaly would not be able to source a propper steel sping ring but maybe I find one.

regarding the film opening, if that's meant by the 1mm brass part that was totally distorted on my example, it does not look at all being hand made. The alu housing of the camera to me seems CNCed and maybe could have ne NCed at the time of making, but as stupid as I am it makes me think of some of these examples beeing China copies made in low number by a DIYer or such (no serial No...). You know already that I like to come up with wild theories but I try to find explanations for things and somethimes that gets wild. Anyway, the film support was also clearly machine (laser) cut. Looking at the surfaces of the filmholder, there are no traces of scribe lines or such. There are scratches, also parallel to the window but their positions are not associated with any camera dimensions. I basically cannot see any trace of manual labor on any of the parts on my camera. Assembly: Clearly and a very bad one. I forgot to mention until now that also some screws are dull but luckily not in important places.

I will follow your suggestion and think about the counter being driving by the center of the winder, actuating a kind of ratchet mechanism. Initially I was thinking about a mechanism like in a watch, that is that kind of u-shaped arm that allows the teeth of a sproket to only be advanced one by one - don't know the proper english expression.

Today I received the book of Ulf Richter and looked at the pictures  of the prototyp 3 camera, which is prettyl close to the UR for its dial. On this camera it clearly looked it was designed to work and not only incremeented by thumb nail like some suggest. Unfortunately nothing about the internals. I think that Barnack would not have put it in (the UR) if it would not have been working.

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[zwieback]

For the drums I saw two ways to get enough pull:

-keep the drums at about 8-9mm like according to the drawing and adapt the gear ratios - needs new gears and bracket but would allow for a correct film travel

-keep things like they are but increase the drum diamenter to 16mm and replace the tensining roller with a newer one. Space is tight but as I do my own film support, clearance is not an issue and I already checked that with a tapered winding shaft it is no problem. The roller I would need to make myself, which is quite simple part

on my camera, I did not measure exactly, I have got less than 35mm pull and I would like to opt of a safe overlap to both sides to prevent light leaks and shutter bounce effects, so about 50mm would be nice.

Removing the pin would avoid this but in my case would require more film, which is not really a problem but I am looking for something enginered and with an end stop for the shutter to keep the curtain tensioned and/or from ripping off the roller after release.

[Ambro51]

Relax.  Your camera was never close to China.  It’s the Genuine Leitz built article, and was in exceptionally nice collector condition, being an object of admiration and display.  Now it’s in pieces.  The bonus was the shutter would wind and then snap when you pushed the shutter.  That’s all.  So really to degrade these cameras in such ways that make them any less capable of shooting them with film “bad” or “wrong” since that was Never their intent.  If Leitz chose to make a working replica, complete with a correct serial number, and built about 100 of them.       Fifty years ago.   Well wouldn’t that be the Rarest Production Leica....lots fewer than the IIId. Only the original Null is rarer.   •••••••.   

[zwieback]

I saw it was in nice condition but without box and still a few not so nice touches regarding the >(original) finish of the letters engraved into the camera body. So, initially I was hesitating when I saw it but than I though about why I bought it and dropped the idea of keeing it in original state.

I was to ask you if it is at all known haow many of them were made? Maybe there are no logged numbers because also, at least on mine, there is no serianl No anywhere on the camera.

Ok, the China idea was not seriouse but if it says that the cameras have been MADE by hand I cannot find any traces. Appears to me like mass produced parts, in which way ever, and assembled - oviously manually.

This is what I found on the national Museums of American History (thats funny...). An extract:

"

The three UR Leicas are unique and were never intended for commercial sale, but from the 1970s onwards Leitz made replica UR Leica cameras for collectors. Because there is no single definitive UR Leica, the replicas have models 1 and 3 features. Some of these replicas were non-functioning dummy display models, but some were designed as functioning cameras.

The UR replica in the Photographic History Collection is a working model with lens. The camera has the Leitz Wetzlar logo on the back and the words Nachbildung der Ur-Leica (replica of the original Leica) on the top plate.

 

[zwieback]

so this is what the original numbers look like?

 

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I guess you are familiar with this one..

[Ambro51]

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Here’s the serial number.   The list of numbers known is on this forum, it looks like about 100 exist.  

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The series you showed were made by  Alberecos   Arces (sic?) and they are lovely display pieces with no cameras parts.  Could not be converted.  These have substantial collector value.  Shares no Leitz parts.  ••••••. The spring power needs to be strong, and roller plus fabric and shutter rolled on can’t we wider than the space between the film crate and the camera body.  This action can have absolutely no binding or the curtain will flap toward the lens as it closes.  Getting these sorting tension right and the drums small enough to move the curtain is essential.  Making the slit opening braces very thin, they need to zip around the rollers with no binding. The “bases of the slit need a certain firmness so they don’t kink.  I attached my shutter ends to the rollers with a joined overlap, using Krazy Glue Gel.  It’s very strong yet despite a lot of trials, can be easily rekeassd and the residue removed for more trials....and then more trials  Edited March 18, 2021 by Ambro51

[wlaidlaw]

Some of the numbers seem to be duplicated. I have serial #80 Ur replica but I think someone else also has one with this serial number. 

Wilson

[Ambro51]

I have 80 it’s stamped top and bottom......that would be the first case of that we have recoded.  13/22 was the other anomaly.  # 206 is an outlier with no number close to that. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

Yeah I had tried different things for the shutter curtain but really found this vintage unused black typewriter ribbon worked the best.    I made it on top of flat piece of wood, pinning down one 9”piece by both ends and making two more identical strips.  I used weldwood contact cement to join all three together with an 1/8” overlap.   So this strip is as wide as needed .   The shutter opening is opened to 24x8 and the excess fabric is not removed but folded over and glued to make the top and bottom of the opening.  The sides overlap the thin reinforcement strips.  I used pounded flat and shaped to thin strips and narrow full width pieces of guitar fret...think Thin here. Very thin.    After all this looked ok I irondered it flat.   A few very thin applications of liquid electrical tape gave it lightproof yet solid and thin.   I think it takes up lessspace because it doesn’t use tapes plus the fabric, it’s just the fabric. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

This is what you buy.  This is the “winding back” drum that has the power to pull all that curtain across as it exposes.  The shaft is a little long you shorten the top. Ezhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-IIIc-DRUM/353052135240?hash=item52338c0f48:g:MEcAAOSw3pZbJmdU  It will need to turned down about 1mm

Edited March 18, 2021 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

It’s Time for a Big THANK YOU to George Furst, a True Gentlenam and Scholar, who has contributed SO Much to our understanding and appreciation of Oskar Barnacks “Liliput Kamra”.   🙂   This Beautiful image was taken by George  , faithfully capturing the Subtle Perspectives of the 42mm Summar, using his UR Leica Replica #28.

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~~~~~~IF you are new to this thread, Please, set some time aside to read it in its entirety.  It’s pretty interesting. Edited March 19, 2021 by Ambro51

[Pyrogallol]

This has just appeared for sale.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-Ur-Leica-Replica-Limited-edition-018501/384045059406?hash=item596ade8d4e:g:3o8AAOSwF7RgVbXS

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Pyrogallol

[wlaidlaw]

I paid less than half that for one in nicer cosmetic condition about 2 years ago but I don't know if the Arces versions are more valuable than the Leica built ones, like mine. 

Wilson

[Ambro51]

It’s a decorated block made by a group of bored telephone repairmen (true).    Please no one start thinking That will make pictures it is not a camera but a display piece. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Ambro51

[George Furst]

On 3/17/2021 at 8:58 PM, zwieback said:

all the bits on the floor

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I note that there are no sprockets for the 35 mm film to wind on in this sample. Also would have been nice to take apart the lens holder that collapses. It is a single lens that fills the location where the Mikro Summar 42 mm lens is placed on the UR Replicas that Mr Kim does. When using the original lens, the 42mm Summar, it fits perfectly into this location and even focuses using the distance marks on the focus basal. The most exciting moment for me was when I realized that the marked focus distances on the UR Dummy were spot on when using the 42 mm!  For me this was the highlight of making the replica. I remember asking Mr Kim if the distance marks were correct? He said “That’s your job.” It also meant that I had to start setting up to develope the film as it took too long from taking pictures of the targets with distance marks on them to getting the film back from Seoul where the film was developed. Very frustrating after having gotten used to the digital Leicas!!

[George Furst]

On 3/19/2021 at 10:43 AM, Ambro51 said:

It’s Time for a Big THANK YOU to George Furst, a True Gentlenam and Scholar, who has contributed SO Much to our understanding and appreciation of Oskar Barnacks “Liliput Kamra”.   🙂   This Beautiful image was taken by George  , faithfully capturing the Subtle Perspectives of the 42mm Summar, using his UR Leica Replica #28.

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~~~~~~IF you are new to this thread, Please, set some time aside to read it in its entirety.  It’s pretty interesting.

Thank you Ambro. Yes, in spite of many friends here in Korea thinking that I was off my rockers for pursuing this dream, we did prevail. You can imagine my joy when Mr Kim, that talented and busy genius camera repair person in Seoul, accepted the challenge my dream entailed. Now we know that this Replica I think is better than the one made by Mr Obrland (sp?) as it uses the original  lens Barnack used. I have taken pictures for a number of years now and  Barnack’s UR never disappoints me with the high quality of the photographs. And after all is this not the goal of a camera? 
 

I was disappointed that when I gave my lecture at the 50 anniversary gathering of the US Leica International Society (LHSA) that none of the owners of present Leica inc., attended. But I was very pleased when James Lager came up to me and said “You wrote me that you planned to do this project, but I was skeptical, as others have said the same thing over the years. You prevailed and I congratulate you!” He made my day as I have always admired him for his excellent publications that have made Leica one of the best documented cameras in the world!

[willeica]

8 hours ago, George Furst said:

I was disappointed that when I gave my lecture at the 50 anniversary gathering of the US Leica International Society (LHSA) that none of the owners of present Leica inc., attended

I was there along with Jim Lager, Lars Netopil and a few others. Here is a photo of Jim Lager (well the back of his head) listening to your explanation, George.

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You may also recall, George, that a small group of attendees, including myself and yourself, visited the grave of Oskar Barnack afterwards where you showed your replica at the grave. It was a great day and all of us were in awe at your replica and the photos you had taken with it.

Best Wishes

William

 

[Ambro51]

The differences between the shaft in #9 and the camera taken apart are in the lathe work.   It looks like the  one could be modified, the wind knob does come off, it’s on a square end.  Seems like the top gear could be cut then the belt groove put in.  The unfinished shoulder could be lcut to shape and then the “teeth” made by hand filing. ••••. You might actually be on a good track that way (if you have a lathe.  )

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Edited March 22, 2021 by Ambro51

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[zwieback]

no need to worry about the shaft, it is already all fixed and under control. You don't need to cut the gear off. It is simply pressed to the shaft and secured by dowl. The thread in the top of the shaft matches exactly the shutter release thread of later Leicas - all simple and straight forward.

The teeth of the shaft you posted are exactly the same on another Ur-Leica I bought, while waiting for some stock to arrive, and are not useable in this state according to my rating. They have got a symetric profile, which is not optimum to grip the perforation of the film and I would expect some risk for the film to not be transported properly. With asymetric, flatened teeth you are on the safe side, just compare to other cameras out there.

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The 2nd camera was a bit of a curiosity. It looks exactly like the 1st one in condition + finish.. and it came with "no number" in the descibtion. When taking a closer look it actually had two numbers stamped into it. In the bottom there is a "66" or "99", whatever you like, and below the top, under the lens there is a "87", The bottom of the first camera does not fit the 1st Ur Leica and having a few base dimensions taken, they were surly made by hand as they differ a couple of thenth mm.

The 2nd shows clearly more attention to detail on the internals but does not make it more useable as a true working camera, so if you want to convert it, the better and/or more refined parts do not help. The parts need to be replaced anyway.

In the meantime I did two different types of lens adapters to measure the flange distance of the lens. This will allow me to define the exact placement of film plane in relation to the ccamera housing and roller positions, leaving myself a bit of a margin to adjust the lens position within the barrel, which will be done with a dedicated spacer later on. The Adapter sits on a digital M camera and with live view I can check the fokus easily and finally take the measurements for any distance I feel the need to (infinity). The adapter can also be used for other "mikro" lenses too.