working Ur-Leica?

[schattenundlicht]

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Yes.

[wlaidlaw]

I am considering buying one of the Leica made dummy UR cameras, as it is the only major pre-war variant I don't have. I was looking at pictures of it. Can someone please tell me what the dial on the front left looking at the camera would have done on a working original? Is this a curtain slit width controller, like my 0 series replica has but 50mm seems too wide or is it an exposure counter and if so, why does it go up to 50? I have always been told that Oscar Barnacks arms' reach was 36 exposures, hence the number of exposures in a cassette. Did he have longer arms before WW1? 

Wilson

 

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Edited November 1, 2018 by wlaidlaw

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[Ambro51]

The dial is the Exposure counter.  Questions remain as to how exactly this operated....and though we have made the camera operational..not so as to the counter..  The original UR’s counter needed to be manually reset •••• Current Film stocks are too thick to easily use a 50 exposure length.  Early nitrate based film stocks were thinner.  36 is a squeeze, 24 fits good.  .  The slit width we are using is fixed and around 8 mm or so.  Be certain if you buy a UR it has the pulley at the upper end inside, on the advance shaft.   It seems some later versions lack this.

[wlaidlaw]

33 minutes ago, Ambro51 said:

The dial is the Exposure counter.  Questions remain as to how exactly this operated....and though we have made the camera operational..not so as to the counter..  The original UR’s counter needed to be manually reset •••• Current Film stocks are too thick to easily use a 50 exposure length.  Early nitrate based film stocks were thinner.  36 is a squeeze, 24 fits good.  .  The slit width we are using is fixed and around 8 mm or so.  Be certain if you buy a UR it has the pulley at the upper end inside, on the advance shaft.   It seems some later versions lack this.

I don't intend to convert the UR to a usable camera. I already have more user film Leicas than any normal person could need (15).😉  I assume that the pulley would only be needed if it was intended to make a user camera. I have put in a bid on the Westlicht Auction on an UR. 

Wilson

[Ambro51]

Yes..for a Shelf Camera, The pulley matters none.  And Yes I have over a dozen film Leicas too (plus at least 50 other Cameras here of all sorts).  It IS a sin that we let these beautiful machines just s i t around, but that’s the way it is.  ~~~~~~~~,The One Camera of mine I get the most ethereal pleasure from now is the UR..using and “explaining” it to people.  Good Luck on the Auction!  I’ll bet George’s talk spikes prices.;-)

[schattenundlicht]

On 11/1/2018 at 7:18 PM, Ambro51 said:

[...]  (plus at least 50 other Cameras here of all sorts).  It IS a sin that we let these beautiful machines just s i t around, but that’s the way it is.  ~~~~~~~~,[...]

This is exactly why I try to restrain myself best as I can with regard to further purchases.

I currently limit myself to 10 working cameras overall , three of them digital, plus one curiousity/ demonstration/ disassembly training IIIa.  This is more than enough if one really wants to give each in turn some decent picture taking workload, which I do. Although not a Leica, my most recent acquisition, a reasonably kept Rolleicord Vb, currently gives me extraordinary pleasure in actually using it, and experiencing even more deceleration than with my early LTMs.

I continue to describe myself as a non-collector, although my family begins to suspect otherwise

Edited November 4, 2018 by schattenundlicht

[wlaidlaw]

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Does anyone know approximately how many UR replicas Leica made in the 1960's and 70's.

If the estimated prices on the Westlicht Auction are realistic, 0 (Null) replicas must be climbing in price finally. I must have bought mine at the bottom of the market, as I got it from a well known UK dealer, all boxed and perfect with paperwork, ERC etc for £600. If correct, this is unusual for me. Normally as soon as I buy something, the bottom falls out of the market. 

Wilson

[schattenundlicht]

5 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

[...] Normally as soon as I buy something, the bottom falls out of the market. 

Wilson

Being notoriously poor at sourcing affordibly is one of the reasons why I fight so hard against becoming a proper collector  

[Ambro51]

Well if you stretch Google to it’s limits the number of URs made stretch from “46+”, “sizeable batches” to the number 500.  George just told me in his discussions with various “bigwigs” at Wetzlar it seems no one has any idea.   On this forum I gathered ‘construction numbers’ stamped in the camera and found from #2 to #80 plus one at #206.   Factually over a year on eBay, Worldwide, from 0 to 4 usually show up.  Way more Compur Leicas and a few less IIId Leicas appear... so read into that what you will.   More research needs to be done, and will be done.•••••••• As you can see by this long lived thread, there is interest in the UR as a Working Camera.  Supply is low,  Demand is High.  ••••••• The Null is a Different Animal from the UR.  They Work astoundingly well and optically are the Finest Barnack Camera ever made.  Users will use these, these will “wear”,  A Lot of Boxed cameras will get unboxed eventually and collectors and users will both be active.

[wlaidlaw]

2 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

Well if you stretch Google to it’s limits the number of URs made stretch from “46+”, “sizeable batches” to the number 500.  George just told me in his discussions with various “bigwigs” at Wetzlar it seems no one has any idea.   On this forum I gathered ‘construction numbers’ stamped in the camera and found from #2 to #80 plus one at #206.   Factually over a year on eBay, Worldwide, from 0 to 4 usually show up.  Way more Compur Leicas and a few less IIId Leicas appear... so read into that what you will.   More research needs to be done, and will be done.•••••••• As you can see by this long lived thread, there is interest in the UR as a Working Camera.  Supply is low,  Demand is High.  ••••••• The Null is a Different Animal from the UR.  They Work astoundingly well and optically are the Finest Barnack Camera ever made.  Users will use these, these will “wear”,  A Lot of Boxed cameras will get unboxed eventually and collectors and users will both be active.

I just wish Leica had put a self capping shutter on the 0(Null). It would then be my favourite pocket camera (I use mine with a SBOOI 50mm finder). It they were prepared to be anachronistic with the coated lens, why not the shutter? Having the plug as a lens cap would be fine but I have not used mine enough, to build a muscle memory to do things in the correct sequence and I have to think about it for every wind-on. 

Wilson

[Ambro51]

Yes, to be correct, Leitz should have had the capping shutter on the Second version of the Null, as along with the “conventional finder”, these were the changes within the original 0 series run.  Instead, they put a picture of Oskar on, basically turning a great camera into a ....  I dunno...words escape me.~~~if you find the little cap irritating, remove it and just put your palm over the lens as you wind on.

[willeica]

If Leica had put in a self capping shutter, the camera would not be a replica original 0 series. As for the items in the auction, the second one is not made by Leica, but rather by Italian craftsman Alberico Arces. Because of their rarity, his items generally go for much more than the Leica made items.

William

Edited November 5, 2018 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

William, 

If Leica wanted the 0 to be a real tool room replica, then it should not have had a coated lens. As they compromised there for image quality, it is not a huge stretch to put in a self capping shutter. As Ambro says, a self capping shutter was used on the later null series production anyway, so in reality a lesser alteration than the coated lens, which could never have been offered. It would make the camera so much more practical. 

Wilson

[Ambro51]

Another Major change is that the Replica null is 1/8” taller in the body.  This was done to allow room for modern film cassettes to be used.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Ambro51

[Ambro51]

On my last outing with the Null I clipped the FOFER on and dutifully followed its readings.  Shooting ISO 6, focus was critical.  That rangefinder is amazingly accurate, providing you set it up per measured distances and Lock it in place.  After a few shifts, I finally put a dot of crazy glue in the right area.  Now it stays in focus.  The view window serves as a somewhat tight viewfinder, as an alternate to the Newton finder.

[willeica]

2 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

William, 

If Leica wanted the 0 to be a real tool room replica, then it should not have had a coated lens. As they compromised there for image quality, it is not a huge stretch to put in a self capping shutter. As Ambro says, a self capping shutter was used on the later null series production anyway, so in reality a lesser alteration than the coated lens, which could never have been offered. It would make the camera so much more practical. 

Wilson

Thanks Wilson. We are, of course, talking about the company that has put a non functioning lever on a digital camera to allow today’s photographers to get a new thumb thingy experience. I agree with you about the coating. Every real Leica person should try using an uncoated lens at least once in their life. 

I can just imagine the marketing types standing around the table saying ‘ let’s give them the opportunity to shoot like Oskar did’. In Wetzlar recently George Furst showed us some marvelous shots taken with his Ur Leica replica, although one or two of the photos had a dark edge on one side showing some evidence of ‘shutter capping’ in the traditional sense of the word, where one curtain catches up with the other at the end of its travel. We suggested that he should ask his Korean technician, Mr Kim if I recall correctly, to look at this issue. A book worth reading is Barnack’s first Leica by Hans Gunter Kisselbach, who also gave us a presentation in Wetzlar. It is about a hand made prototype, similar to the Null series, which Barnack himself used. The book is available on Kindle and you will be amazed at the color photos which Hans Gunter has obtained with the camera.

While I hugely admire the work which George and Ambro and others have done to create replicas of early cameras, my own preference is to use actual early cameras and I was hugely pleased recently, after a bit of a technical struggle, to get some nice photos out of my SN 1661 Model A, a 92 year old camera, virtually in original condition, with an uncoated first type Elmar.

William

 

 

 

[wlaidlaw]

William, 

I have that book but I am ashamed to admit I have yet to get round to reading it. Quite a few of my older cameras have family links and I am always concerned about damaging them or getting them stolen, given that to me, they are irreplaceable. I have spent years tracking down where they were dispersed to, mostly amongst various family members, after my father died (my mother gave them away to all and sundry). The 0/null could be easily replaced and it is such a lovely form factor I would use it more if only......... I do use my 1C standard for black and white but have to admit I am not a big 3.5 Elmar fan (too fiddly when used with a hood, even a VIDOM), ditto for my Hektor. All my Summars have gone off for cleaning and service, so I can't even use one of them. My main users in Barnacks are my IIIa and Reid and Sigrist 3 for 50mm and IIIg for 35mm Summaron.

I am attending the dedication ceremony for the WW1 Remembrance Benches, made out of the Verdun Oak on Thursday. After the end of WW1, two oaks were planted at Kew Gardens, in front of the War Memorial, from acorns gathered from the Verdun battlefield but one tree was so badly damaged in a storm a few years ago that it had to be felled. I suspect I will take my M7, as I just don't get errors with that and the ceremony will never be repeated, so I don't want to miss any shots. https://www.gazeburvill.com/remembrance-and-hope/ 

Ambro,

Can you not lock your FOFER adjustment by tightening the two hole ring around the adjustment screw in the middle of the dial. I did that with my FODIS and FODUA rangefinders after calibration and they never seem to go out of adjustment now. 

Wilson

[willeica]

Thanks Wilson. You may recall my article last year about using  a Kodak Vest Pocket VPK from 1915 in original condition etc to take photos of the World War I Garden of Remembrance in Dublin http://macfilos.com/photo/2017/8/15/in-the-pocket-photography-from-world-war-one . I hope this link works as the site it is on is about to be migrated, just as happened recently with the Leica Forum.

I am actually in London for a meet up with Leica Society members on Wednesday and also a visit to the new Photography Centre at the V&A , but I have to fly back to Dublin on Thursday. I hope all goes well for the ceremony at Kew Gardens on Thursday.

William

 

[Ambro51]

Well Guys, Time for Payday.  Working UR Leica #80, photo by George Furst.  I’m sure you recognize the place.  🙂

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Ambro51]

And of course, Herr Barnacks Original.  

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