working Ur-Leica?

[zwieback]

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not yet... just had a first look again at the forum since a very long time.

Unfortunately I had to take a break because of very seriouse heath issues but now I am back on track and will complete the missing steps whenever I fell like doing some work on it.

Will keep you posted like previousely.

[Ambro51]

Yup.  

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[seneschal]

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I have also recently acquired one of these Nachbildungen Ur-Leica dummies. Lovely to hold, pleasure to turn the wind knob and release the "shutter". It really does look and feel great, I can see from the hundreds of posts that it can become an obsession, so I am looking for advice that will prevent me from being tempted to try and make it work! I have not taken a screwdriver to it yet, but I am fascinated to wonder why there is so much mechanism inside if it wasn't in some way supposed to be part way to functioning... and maybe functioning for real with some additional effort. The focussing mechanism seems to move the lens body in and out, the lens has glass in it and what looks like an iris with blades, but the screw for the iris adjustment is not moving. So tempting to try and find out why... but as soon as I do that I will have embarked on a project. I have to convince myself that it isn't a real camera... even though I bought it thinking I might be able to make it work... HELP ME PLEASE!!!

Edited November 3, 2021 by seneschal

[Ambro51]

Read through ALL the posts on this thread.   Everything you need to know is here.

[seneschal]

3 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

Read through ALL the posts on this thread.   Everything you need to know is here.

That is exactly my plan… thanks… it looks daunting!

[George Furst]

You are correct! It is daunting. What you have is the shell and a few of the parts of the ur camera. Enough to make you think that there is just a little tweaking here and there and presto…a working UR just like Barnack made over one hundred years ago. Ambro51 is most knowledgable about this as he did it with one of his ur dummy cameras. If he has time he can give some of the frustrations and joys of the conversion. First the glass lens is not suitable to take photographs, it is there just for looks and that includes the adjustable iris diaphram. Then there is the shutter. What you see is a left over Leica lllg shutter curtain ( That’s what I have been told as the M3 usurped the screw mount cameras) Note the the two ribbons that hold it to one of the shutter drums, they are a part one of the two curtains found in the lllg. Then there is the question of controlling the tension of cocking the shutter drum. The gear controlling the tension is missing. The wheel to put it on is there, so all you have to do is make a gear on the wheel and a matching one on the cocking shutter to fit. Then there is the question of the shutter springs that reside inside one of the drums and make the shutter curtain window move across in front of the film when the shutter is released. Also there is no way to advance the film. Another set of gears or a special looped spring must be fashioned, like Oskar Barnack did. You must also find a Leitz Micro Summar 42 mm lens. This the easiest part of the project as they show up on eBay from time to time. 
 

Now when you have done all of the above, you must fit all into a very small space and be able to collapse the lens into the area between the shutter drums without damaging the fragile curtain. This happens to be one of the greatest challenges. When all this is done, take a rest like God did on the 7th day and start taking pictures!!

 

We did all this a few years ago. When I say we, it was a labor of love with me advising a famous watch maker/camera technician, Mr. Kim, here in South Korea. I provided the lens and advised him on the shutter curtain window opening of 8 mm. I worked with him over a number of months and every week kept encouraging him and tried to share the pain he was experiencing to do something that seemed easy but in execution was not. One challenge after another arose. He complained of getting a headache every time he looked at the box of parts! As the hours and weeks passed, I fed him special pastries to keep the project moving forward. At the end, I give him $1200 for his considerable effort. Now I had to test the project camera to see if the lens focused, the film advanced, and the UR Replica worked. I did this and after a few light leaks were sealed we had the first operational Barnack UR Replica in the world that used the same lens that Barnack used!!
 

The last project was making the film counter on the front of the camera work. So six months later I brought him the headache. After a number of months he accomplished this and now we had a fully functioning UR Replica. I am very proud of what Mr. Kim accomplished and feel he should receive an award for what he did. Without his watch making/camera background this camera would never have been completed. So when you look at your UR Dummy realize that it is tempting to think that this is a simple project, it is not! If it was, it would not have taken almost fifty years after the dummies were made by aspiring Leitz mechanics in the 1970s (A graduation project I believe) to add what is needed to make a fully functioning camera from the shell of the dummy. So I wish you good luck and look forward to hearing about your adventure by filling the pages of this thread!

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[Ambro51]

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Refer to post #281, and compare your camera takeup shaft to the picture.  There are two major variants in the replica, if you have the “V” grove pulley shaft like the one pictured, your task is much simpler.  A 1” diameter rubber drive belt, twisted to a figure 8, takes the place of Barnacks spring loop and Mr Kim’s gear train.  It ALSO means the film path position matches the film gate opening.     Check your camera......

[zwieback]

my own little conversion project went on hold since quite some time but all I can say so far is to confirm the satements of Mr Furst and Ambro, who are probably the only persons on the planet that have got true working ur leicas (besides the maybe two lucky owners of the original cameras that cannot be traced anymore).

Initially I had the same thought like you that basically it has got all what it need for a complete working camera but when I got started I found very quickly that yes, it is true but then not really true because a lot of the parts almost do the job that they are supposed to but need change/adaption to really make them work. For my own camera I ended up replacing pretty much ALL of the internal parts. If you go back a couple of pages you will find some pictures.

This should not discurage you but move thing into perspective, so don't be fouled by owning an "almost" working camera. Retrospectively I think it would even be easier to build you own camera enterily that making the ur work because you then also do not have to live with the restrictions of the original design. The most severe I found is the available spece in respect to roller size, film pull and light seals.

You example looks very clean and build with precision, which was clearly not the case for my camera, so maybe this gives you a better start. Good luck

I will restart the completion of my camera over the end of the year and hope to post some news and pictures again some time.

[George Furst]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:25 PM, zwieback said:

my own little conversion project went on hold since quite some time but all I can say so far is to confirm the satements of Mr Furst and Ambro, who are probably the only persons on the planet that have got true working ur leicas (besides the maybe two lucky owners of the original cameras that cannot be traced anymore).

Initially I had the same thought like you that basically it has got all what it need for a complete working camera but when I got started I found very quickly that yes, it is true but then not really true because a lot of the parts almost do the job that they are supposed to but need change/adaption to really make them work. For my own camera I ended up replacing pretty much ALL of the internal parts. If you go back a couple of pages you will find some pictures.

This should not discurage you but move thing into perspective, so don't be fouled by owning an "almost" working camera. Retrospectively I think it would even be easier to build you own camera enterily that making the ur work because you then also do not have to live with the restrictions of the original design. The most severe I found is the available spece in respect to roller size, film pull and light seals.

You example looks very clean and build with precision, which was clearly not the case for my camera, so maybe this gives you a better start. Good luck

I will restart the completion of my camera over the end of the year and hope to post some news and pictures again some time.

The greatest challenge facing you is the diameter of the shutter curtain rollers. If their diameter is too large, you cannot collapse the lens in between the rollers. If you make the rollers diameter too small, the shutter does not function very well as the radius of the shutter does not have enough torque to function well when you release the shutter curtain. Also if the shutter barrel is too small in diameter, the spiral spring will not fit inside the shutter barrel or it will bind inside the shutter barrel! 

The critical dimension is not only the diameter of the shutter barrels but their diameter when the shutter curtain is rolled on one shutter barrel when the film is wound in preparation to take a picture, an the diameter of the other receiving barrel when the curtain is wound on it when the picture is taken. Related to this the receiving barrel has inside a spiral spring that is connected to the adjustment knob on the top that changes the shutter speed. In one of the above discussions it is said that the original UR had only one shutter speed. This is not correct. There are multiple speeds of the shutter curtain and they are controlled by the knob on the top of the camera that is connected by a gear to the spiral spring inside the shutter barrel. The highest shutter speed is obtained by moving the topside knob in the direction of the arrow under the shutter release button that is chrome. As you rotate this knob, you loosen the spring internal to the shutter drum and thereby change the speed at which the 8 mm shutter moves across in front of the film. I have estimated my original UR Replica, the first one made using dummy No. 38, as changing from 100th/second to 300th/second. This was estimated by taking picture of water drops falling from a fountain at my university and comparing the blur using a film camera with a shutter that I know the shutter speeds and can change them between 60th and 1000th/second. I know that the speeds are an estimation but it is the best I can do. I know the shutter speeds vary quite allot just by the sound of the moving of the shutter between slow speed and the fastest shutter speed. 
 

in the later iterations of this camera,Barnack changed the shutter speeds in a more elegant way by having two shutter curtains here one can change the width of the shutter curtain window. This is definitely more elegant but at the same time this leads to the failure of the curtains because one of the ribbons fail. Also it means that you need two shutter rollers holding the curtains that each have springs inside. This has been one of the major failure areas of the Barnack screw mount cameras. The single shutter curtain in the UR is not elegant but the part of the curtain glued to the shutter rollers is a much larger surface and thereby not as vulnerable to curtain failure. Those ribbons on the later screw mount Leitz shutters are very small and thereby the UR is less prone to failures of the shutter curtain. Also the shutter curtain with the 8mm window is very robust and not prone to failure. I have been using my UR Replica for Five years not and never had problems with the shutter curtain.

I wish to again say the Mr Kim should receive recognition for what he has done. And what is amazing to me is it only took him 6 months to make the first replica from the dummy. He is a legend here in Korea and has a devoted following and even a movie made about his many accomplishments. It is critical the watch making was his first profession. And no fear of trying a challenging project. Certainly making the UR into a working camera is very challenging. The small size of the camera external and internal space makes it an almost impossible task!

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[zwieback]

Today there is some progress to report. I cut a blank for the shutter curtain and test fitted it to the camera. The position of the curtain relative to the roller height needed to be marked. The rollers have got different heights left and right, so you cannot just glue the curtain with the same distance to the edge of the rollers but need to adjust it individually, so the frame to the negative gets closed sufficiently with equal overlap top and bottom and to also have the rollers square.

The blank is about 1.5 times the length that I would need it to be but I also wanted to check if there would be any binding of the rollers to mechanical components inside the camera once the curtain is rolled up and increases the diameter.

The camera was provisionally assembled to allow to fire the (new) shutter, with all the other modifications done, for the first time. I was quite happy to see that it all worked fine and even the oversized curtain not giving any issues. At the moment there is no slot cut into the curtain, which will have to follow once all is fitted properly inside the camera. With all components in place I will mark the position of the film window and leave a margine to where the slot should be positioned. Using the marks as a reference the slot will be cut.

My idea is to not use two curtains connected by ribbons of the length of the slot but to cut the slot into a single piece curtain, folding the ends of the slot over to double the thickness (and add some reinforcement - steel wire probaly). There will be a margine of 4mm top and bottom that will act like the ribbons on the original camera. It tested that they are stiff and strong enough to serve the purpose.

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[zwieback]

a little more work has been done. I made the lens adapter to fit the micro lens instead of the original one. It is a simple adapter ring and I have to adjust its height to align focus. On the pictures you still see the (50mm) Milar lens but finally the summar will be installed.

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new and old/original lens assy:

 

The lens with its adapter are a snug fit into the tube and do not need any additional fixatioin.

 

[zwieback]

interestingly the outer diameter of the Ur tubus and the one of an elmar/clone are almost identical. Swapping to an elmar appears to be a quite simple alternative.

It will of corse not be "original" and in my eyes it certaily does not fit to the camera in respect to style, history ...

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here, the lens is assembled:

 

[zwieback]

On the camera a light seal was added. This will isolate take up spool area from light, hopefully... a few more details required on it. The side of the camera with the unexposed film does not seem to need an additional light seal. The film support that I did and its fit is already sealed to the camera housing (on the picture, right):

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There is only a small gap between the shutter curtain and the seal and directly behind is the roller. On the picture the curtain is slack. Under normal operation conditions this would never happen:

Edited January 20, 2022 by zwieback

[zwieback]

like most of the time there are always small, little nasty details to tackle. For installing the light seal, the spring for the ratchet mechanism that stops the film from unwinding, needed to be replaced by a shorter version. The original spring would have pirced through the light seal otherwise, potentially leading for some parasitic light to pass and expose the film:

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Slowly but reasonable steadily too the finalisation comes closer. 

 

[George Furst]

I never thought of the problem of the exposed film side of the camera and the problem of film being exposed to the light. Mr Kim’s design did not have that problem because he very carefully made the area isolated from the rest of the camera. It is also the reason that he redesigned the ratchet lever to be much smaller. I always wondered why he redesigned this little arm, you have answered the reason. I wish you the best and still wonder if you will be able to fit the folded lens between the shutter rollers. As I explained above this is the greatest challenge!
 

I certainly agree with you that it would be easier to start with a different body. Barnack must have thought that too as he struggled with the shutter curtain room and light leak issue. This all shows that Barnack made the camera as small as possible. Any smaller the dimensions and he could never have been successful with a working camera. I always wonder if there were earlier attempts at making this camera. I find it hard to believe that he on his first try, came up with the smallest body possible! This final design must have been a culmination of a number of failed attempts. Too bad that he never shared his struggles with us. I am sure his wife became sick of hearing of his struggle to come up with the final design of the UR!

[Jincheol Choi]

I respect Professor George Furst for his passion and hard work.
I saw everything from the beginning to understand the professor.
It's only been two years since I used leica. But luckily, I got to know Mr. Kim. The cameras and lenses I own were reborn through his hands.

Ten months ago, I asked for a wish while having dinner with Mr. Kim. His wish was to go to Leica headquarters.
I have a trade deal with a German manufacturer, so I promised to take him when I visit Germany.
In the meantime, I have consulted with leica-Korea and leica-Germany, and they have been contacted to welcome Mr. Kim with a special program.

Finally, Mr. Kim's wish will come true in two weeks.
It is a blessing for us who love cameras to have a professor George Furst and Mr. Kim.
I also know from Mr. Kim that your UR-Leica is in Chungmuro, Seoul.
I left a message for the professor.

 

Please understand that it is through a translator.

[George Furst]

That is wonderful as Mr Kim deserves to be recognized for his being the first person in the world to make a UR Leitz Camera that actually takes photographs. There have been others who have tried to reproduce the camera using the replica, but evidently none of them were able to produce a camera that actually took photographs like the ones that the engineer Barnack made. It is the skill of Mr Kim that was able to overcome all the challenges.

I have always felt that Mr Kim deserved an award for this accomplishment. I remember his discussing all the headaches related to this project. It is a great example of his skill and fortitude that he never gave up. My only part of it was that I encouraged him and brought pastries from time to time, as awards for keeping up with the project. This was an extremely difficult challenge. If it was easier, others would have made a working example before! That is wonderful that he will receive the recognition that is well deserved!

 

[frame-it]

On 5/11/2023 at 2:37 PM, Jincheol Choi said:

your UR-Leica is in Chungmuro, Seoul.

i saw it last month.

[Jincheol Choi]

This is the result of shooting with Kodak Farbwelt ISO 200 film with 12 cut exposure. It works great. There was trial and error because it was my first time.
Thank you for your consideration, Professor George Furst.
I will ask Mr. Kim to load B&W ISO 400Tmax film.

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Hallo,

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