Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[jaapv]

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Plenty of tutorials out there

Xrite software will handle everything automatically. Shoot colour chart like Colorchecker Passport and import it into your Xrite software, 

[elmars]

If you do not want to edit each image separately, you have the following options:

• Shoot with a fixed white balance (which has advantages anyway), such as daylight. Then create a preset with the values 5150 for temperature and +10 for tint. The preset is either applied automatically during import or manually by marking all newly imported images and editing them with the preset.
• Create a camera calibration as I linked above and use this calibration as the import setting. This also works with AWB.

But it's best if as many people as possible write to Leica to either set the tint to +10 for everyone or give us the choice. I prefer the latter because there are many fans of the magenta cast.

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[DominoGE]

does the q3 also have the magenta issue?

[Photoworks]

48 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Plenty of tutorials out there

Xrite software will handle everything automatically. Shoot colour chart like Colorchecker Passport and import it into your Xrite software, 

only one issue, the image color shift is big, and reflects the x-rites colors, not yours or leica's. at this point you can use any camera.

[jaapv]

Correct It is neutral, making it easy to tweak to your taste. And what is Leica’s color? The taste of some software engineer.

i have yet to see a camera with an out of the box profile that I like. Worst was M240. The first attempt by Leica/Adobe was horrible with eye-watering reds, I did not bother to use the second attempt in the upgrade although it was admittedly a lot better. Second on the list is the Panasonic S5. I don’t really know what waswrong but I thoroughly disliked the factory profile in Photoshop. I made three profiles:Sun, cloud and dual illuminant. That worked.

I am not surprised but a little saddened when people go blaming the tools instead of applying photographic craftsmanship-and not the most difficult at that. 

[lct]

The reddish skin tones of the M240 have been fixed rather soon (2013?) if i remember well so all hope is not lost for those who dislike the M11 profile that i find better personally.

[Adam Bonn]

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Here's how this works from a helicopter view.

The DNG has a tag in it called AsShotNeutral. (ASN)

This is a 3 number tag.

The RAW app (or in camera jpeg engine) uses this tag to map the ASN of the non-white-balanced RAW data into a known colour space.

(For adobe this is CIE XYZ)

Leica are perfectly capable of tweaking the algorithm that creates the ASN to make it more pleasing.

For adobe/Leica to release a new profile is more tricky...

Would they give it a new name...?

Weird (ie bad) things happen in adobe with you have 'profile1' and change it to something new, but don't rename it... (all the legacy images with profile1 will display funny, but you won't be laughing)

For adobe it's even harder... that 'adobe color' (or landscape, portrait etc) profile isn't tailored to your camera, it's a one size fits RGB colour table.

Only 'adobe standard' is tailored for each camera.

So if adobe make a new adobe standard they'll have the problem I note above, if they call it adobe standard2 then their RGB colour tables won't link to it, so they'd need to redo their colour tables, but only for one camera.

It's not happening.

 

[la1402]

Not sure it is right to overdue the Leica defense by implying that users are just too stupid to apply the correctly adjusted profiles themselves. Yes it is no snapshot camera. Yes you should know what you do when you spend this amount of money. Yes xrite works well. But still you need different profiles for different lightings and need to apply them in post, for almost every picture. It just would be nice if Leica would provide useable, white balanced pictures with AWB out of the box as a convenient option. As Nikon can do with its Japanese “computers”.  Nothing wrong in using tech to users benefits. 

[Adam Bonn]

If WB performance is poor when using a Leica profile (don't have an M11, but they're generally called embedded) then it really is Leica's job to fix it.

X-Rite is ok for freeware but frankly the resultant profile is super basic (mind you so is the Leica one)

The calibration sliders in LR/ACR are designed by adobe to resolve these sorts of problems, personally I'd start there..

 

[elmars]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb DominoGE:

does the q3 also have the magenta issue?

No, the Q3 has a better tint like the M10 and other Leicas. Leica should make look photos out of all their cameras nearly the same. 

[adan]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Correct It is neutral, making it easy to tweak to your taste. And what is Leica’s color? The taste of some software engineer.

Right.

In my view an intentional attempt to make the M11 default more "M9-like," because so many bemoan the loss of the "CCD look."

It is (or may be) also kinder to some skin tones (rosy pink vs. sallow yellow) - for a given value of "kinder." 😁

Personally, I profiled the M9 to render reds slightly more orange (and less saturated)....... Adobe Calibration page - red hue +10 toward yellow, red sat. -25.

As well as setting up and saving, as a new default, a WB that neutralized the magenta/green tint slider (and still added a touch of green with certain lenses).

Thereafter, any new M9 image I opened used my saved settings rather than the Adobe/Leica defaults - never excess saw magenta again.

I would assume the same would work for the M11, although Adobe's method of setting up personal defaults is a bit more complex today than 10 years ago.

...................

Of note, I consider the 35 Summicron ASPH itself to be quite a "pink/magenta" lens as Leica M lenses go - regardless of camera and post-processing settings. I simply won't use it. This chart from Erwin Puts' Leica M Lenses - Their Soul and Secrets .pdf book, showing the color characteristics of a few M lenses, explains why. 

Note how the Summicron-M 35mm ASPH is higher in red (right column), and lower in green (center column) = differential of 1.

I prefer the Mandler/Canada lenses, highlighted in green. Which mostly have a green/red differential of at least +2 (and often +3) - in favor of green.

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[bcaslis]

I'm really amazed at all the comments here. It's as simple as choosing a different profile in Adobe Lightroom or Photoshop. Takes 5 seconds if you take your time. No need to fiddle with tint values or white balance. If you don't like the Adobe looks, you can go to Cobalt Image and get their profile or their profile packs to make it look like any camera.

There is no "tint" in the hardware, it just a profile (assuming you are using RAW).

[Cattoo]

3 hours ago, adan said:

In my view an intentional attempt to make the M11 default more "M9-like," because so many bemoan the loss of the "CCD look."

Not sure how much credibility to give this but "The Phoblographer" wrote in his January 2022 review of the M11 that in meeting with Leica they told him that the M11's colors are supposed to mimic Kodachrome when using the auto white balance mode.  See his review here:

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2022/01/13/three-great-cameras-in-one-leica-m11-review/

 

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

X-Rite is ok for freeware but frankly the resultant profile is super basic (mind you so is the Leica one)

Ummm???

https://www.xrite.com/de

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, la1402 said:

But still you need different profiles for different lightings and need to apply them in post, for almost every picture

That is true for any profile by Adobe or whoever else (although using a dual-illuminant one mitigates this). Still, photographers manage to get quite decent results with the simplistic approach.  Personally I create profiles for tropical sun, sun, cloudy, tungsten and a dual-illuminant one. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Cattoo said:

Not sure how much credibility to give this but "The Phoblographer" wrote in his January 2022 review of the M11 that in meeting with Leica they told him that the M11's colors are supposed to mimic Kodachrome when using the auto white balance mode.  See his review here:

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2022/01/13/three-great-cameras-in-one-leica-m11-review/

 

Quite possible. As I recall Kodachrome 64 was a bit magenta. I normally used Kodachrome 25 which was more biased towards red.  Fujichrome was bluish and Agfachrome tended towards muddy green. Which just goes to show that we are blessed in digital to be able to take close to complete control over the colour output of our camera by simple means. Although, even when printing Cibachrome from my slides I did use a colorimeter and colourhead to colour-balance the result

[adan]

1 hour ago, Cattoo said:

Not sure how much credibility to give this but "The Phoblographer" wrote in his January 2022 review of the M11 that in meeting with Leica they told him that the M11's colors are supposed to mimic Kodachrome when using the auto white balance mode.  See his review here:

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2022/01/13/three-great-cameras-in-one-leica-m11-review/

 

Same difference.

The M9 sensor mimicked Kodachrome - because it was engineered by Kodak.

The M11 may mimic Kodachrome - or it may mimic the M9 mimicking Kodachrome. 😁

[Jeff S]

Buy the camera you want. Use the lens you want. Pick your WB settings. Customize profiles. Change default settings as desired. Use presets if preferred. Choose printer ink sets and experiment with papers to alter renderings. Change display lighting as desired.  Etc. Etc. Not to mention shot selection and conditions.

Everything matters. Enough choices, and decisions, to suit all preferences.  I don’t see the problem; only user flexibility.  

Jeff

 

[jaapv]

The problem is that many camera brands produce cameras that take good photographs. Leica produces cameras that enable the photographer to take good (imo better) photographs. 

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[Adam Bonn]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Ummm???

https://www.xrite.com/de

A dual illuminant ACR/LR profile created with colorchecker will contain 2 color matrices, which is 18 numbers (same as the Leica profiles)

A dual illuminant ACR/LR profile created by adobe or paid for software that’s specialised, will contain 2 color matrices, 2 forward matrices, a LUT for each illuminant and an extra profile LUT and possibly a tone curve.

ACR/LR rather enjoys having all of the extra data found in a fully loaded profile, in fact over the years adobe has very much changed the split of the work load of their profiles, a while back the forward matrices handled the heavy lifting and the LUTs just kept things in scope, but these days the forward matrices are somewhat watered down and the LUTs provide the meat (this is to facilitate modern cameras increased performance)

When the profile doesn’t contain the forward matrices and LUTs, adobe tends to guess what they might have said.. like all guesses applied across a great many scenarios sometimes it’s better a guess than others.

Of course as you say below the post I’m quoting, if one accepts it’s a tool to create a starting point, then making a dual illuminant (or even a single D50, that would be smart) profile around one’s exact camera (the Leica/adobe/etc profiles are a one size fits every example solution when of course each example can have differences.. plus we don’t all use the same lenses) then this starting point gets better.

But if one requires a particular look or is trying to account for an undesirable trait from a camera, then using a profile tool with configurable options is a better option.