Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[hjddd]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, bcaslis said:

我们必须同意不同意。很明显你不喜欢它，但在很多情况下我认为白平衡是正确的，因为它反映了我所看到的。在某些情况下，它并不完美，因为它不是灰卡的值，而是我的眼睛看到的值。但坦率地说，对于一个可以一键解决的“问题”来说，整个主题令人筋疲力尽。我再说一遍，我从未见过任何制造商的任何相机具有完美的白平衡。

but neither any company process DNG with such strange purplish tint……nor older models process such color problem from M8 to M10R

[bcaslis]

18 minutes ago, hjddd said:

but neither any company process DNG with such strange purplish tint……nor older models process such color problem from M8 to M10R

I don't agree with your characterization. The M11 profile is heavily biased to magenta but that is easy to change to anything else. I never use the M11 profile it makes red objects appear to be neon magenta. But most of the argument here is on white balance. I've never seen a camera with perfect white balance. If that is critical to you, every camera I've ever seen needs adjustment. I don't a reason to single out the M11 of having a "problem" unless you want to say every camera has a problem. I know most of the people in this thread feel otherwise but I'm willing to bet there are just as many people who think it is fine. And don't think previous M cameras are the gold standard like some here do.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[LocalHero1953]

The M8 had a major problem with colours from day 1, which were fixed with an IR filter - they couldn't be fixed with a firmware upgrade. The M9 colours I found a bit garish, and continued to have a lesser but still unfixable magenta/red bias from IR contamination. The M240 colours were said to be muddy and brown/yellow - I found them OK. I can see green in some of the M10 images posted here. I made my own profiles for M9, M240, CL, SL. I haven't felt the need to do so for the SL2-S, but then most of what I do with the SL2-S is indoors with artificial, often stage lighting, whose colour is often heavily tinted, and has notches and peaks in the frequency spectrum - so I always adjust the WB of my images. But I accept that there are plenty of people, perhaps the majority, who are looking at scenes in natural external light - and this thread makes it clear that some of them want a WB that, SOOC, matches what they think it should be. I don't have a problem with their concerns - as long as they don't expect the rest of us to share them. If Leica makes a change to its algorithm to accommodate this view, that would be fine by me - I would still check and adjust the WB on every single shot, as I do now.

[jgeenen]

I tried the curve profile described yesterday to a good number of M11 pictures taken in sunlight, overcast and various artificial light sources and found:

• The color temperature setting out of camera - regardless of fixed or auto - is not bad at all.
• Virtually every photo - according to my taste - benefits from a treated tone curve with slightly reduced red and blue channels (red 128->125, blue 128->127)
• After applying this curve adjustment, there is usually no need to manipulate the color tint of WB at all.
• Until now I haven't found any sample where the curve adjustment makes the result worse than before.

My personal conclusion:

• It is not the M11 white balance that is off, it is the color baseline of the M11 that some people (including myself) don't like.
• Applying an import profile with slightly reduced red and blue channels creates a starting point that is a good starting point for further tuning and almost always sufficient for less critical observation.

If someone is interested in my settings as a starting point for further tests, see the attached screenshots from Lightroom Classic's curve editor. Please let me know, if you have a different opinion/solution. As I mentioned earlier, my setup is not fully calibrated and I haven't completed tests yet (in particular I need to do some prints)

The M11 profile of DxO 5 seems to apply some magenta corrections to the color as well and usually does not need a treatment similar to LrC. Capture One 22 on the other hand seems to behave similar to LrC (I don't have the latest releases of DxO or C1, that might have changed) (judging from two or three sample images I did on the fly)

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[lct]

35 minutes ago, jgeenen said:

• [...] It is not the M11 white balance that is off, it is the color baseline of the M11 that some people (including myself) don't like.
• Applying an import profile with slightly reduced red and blue channels creates a starting point that is a good starting point for further tuning and almost always sufficient for less critical observation.[...]

For those disliking the M11 profile, i would not rule out the simple fix consisting in replacing it with a generic one, as suggested (see below). Can be done with a couple of clicks in iCorrect for those interested. Now i don't have to replace the M11 profile with Silkypix that i find immune from magenta or red cast in its "faithful" setting per se.

 

[don daniel]

Oh my God: Currently, it seems that the most useful tip does not come from those who deny the problem, but from someone who simply takes the trouble to work on it concretely!
First shot with awful magenta cast. Second image is the same shot, but corrected as jgeenen has described it above: much, much better! It is very simple to make an import profile from this. I'll have to check how I like this adjustment in different lighting situations.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[don daniel]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Another example without and with adjustments. The Holocaust-Mahnmal in Berlin. 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, don daniel said:

Oh my God: Currently, it seems that the most useful tip does not come from those who deny the problem, but from someone who simply takes the trouble to work on it concretely!
First shot with awful magenta cast. Second image is the same shot, but corrected as jgeenen has described it above: much, much better! It is very simple to make an import profile from this. I'll have to check how I like this adjustment in different lighting situations.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I think there is nothing wrong with either one. I think it is a little change, N1 the building has a bolder color and warmer, and the bottom one is a little green for my taste.

It would be interesting to see it at brighter exposure.

On another point it is hard to get good color reproduction in skin colors, I think your edit will make people look green. can't please everyone!

 

[Photoworks]

here are some photos of out the camera from M11.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

[jgeenen]

Thanks for sharing, Photoworks. Your photos are perfect examples for photos that don't benefit from "magenta treatment" that I used earlier. There are certain color combinations (including grey) and lighting situations that are very resistent to magenta shifts. Luckily this is true for the  complementary color shift as well - so applying my profile does not harm either (I tested it and the variation is visible but negligible). 

You are absolutely correct, reproduction of skin tones is a key challenge. Unfortunately I don't have too many portraits to test (that's why I count on you guys to challenge my curve attempt), but the ones I was able to check did not suffer from green cast after treatment. Why? Partly because the treatment is very moderate and mainly affects mid tones. It does not affect lighter or darker skin tones as much as mid tones. 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by jgeenen

[lct]

5 hours ago, lct said:

For those disliking the M11 profile, i would not rule out the simple fix consisting in replacing it with a generic one, as suggested [...] Can be done with a couple of clicks in iCorrect for those interested [...]

I meant a couple of clicks in Iridient Developer sorry.

[jgeenen]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb lct:

I meant a couple of clicks in Iridient Developer sorry.

Thanks. I desperately searched for a tool iCorrect and already doubted my Google skills 🙂. 

[lct]

4 minutes ago, jgeenen said:

Thanks. I desperately searched for a tool iCorrect and already doubted my Google skills 🙂. 

Sorry again.

[don daniel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Photoworks:

I think there is nothing wrong with either one. I think it is a little change, N1 the building has a bolder color and warmer, and the bottom one is a little green for my taste.

It would be interesting to see it at brighter exposure.

On another point it is hard to get good color reproduction in skin colors, I think your edit will make people look green. can't please everyone!

 

Sorry, I see a huge difference. And your examples would also benefit from this adjustment, especially the second one. Skin tones seem better, too. And I can cure my JPGs by the same treatment. Still trying other lighting situations though. In artificial light I often see no problem at all and I would not want to correct the color profile then. 

[Cattoo]

7 hours ago, don daniel said:

In artificial light I often see no problem at all and I would not want to correct the color profile then. 

One solution is to create different color profiles for different lighting situations or different camera/lens combos.  See the link below.      

https://petapixel.com/how-to-use-color-checker-photography/#How_Many_Profiles_is_Enough

 

[don daniel]

Today, I was out briefly in daylight and rain. The recommended profile above doesn't help much in those conditions, nor does it work well in artificial light. It's a profile designed for sunshine. Unfortunately, it confirms my impression that it's not just a color profile issue, but indeed a white balance problem. When I adjust the white balance, I always achieve colors that are suitable for me without manipulating the tone curve. So, it remains a wish of mine that Leica improves this and creates an option for a white balance that is not magenta-heavy.

[hjddd]

1 hour ago, don daniel said:

今天，我在白天和下雨的情况下短暂外出。上面推荐的配置文件在这些条件下没有多大帮助，在人造光下也效果不佳。这是专为阳光设计的轮廓。不幸的是，它证实了我的印象：这不仅仅是颜色配置文件问题，而且确实是白平衡问题。当我调整白平衡时，我总是能在不操纵色调曲线的情况下获得适合我的颜色。因此，我仍然希望徕卡能够改进这一点，并为白平衡创建一个不偏洋红色的选项。

thats right。at least we let them know that the M11 series indeed have the problem

[jgeenen]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb don daniel:

Today, I was out briefly in daylight and rain. The recommended profile above doesn't help much in those conditions, nor does it work well in artificial light. It's a profile designed for sunshine. Unfortunately, it confirms my impression that it's not just a color profile issue, but indeed a white balance problem. When I adjust the white balance, I always achieve colors that are suitable for me without manipulating the tone curve. So, it remains a wish of mine that Leica improves this and creates an option for a white balance that is not magenta-heavy.

Interesting, something I‘d like to understand better. Can you post a sample or two? My profile „hack“ was done on a cloudy day and at least for me it seems to work reasonably well to remove the magenta cast under natural light conditions from rainy to sunny (which is more than I hoped for). I don’t believe it will work under artificial light as most modern light sources in the field have a unique cast that requires individual tuning anyhow.

don‘t get me wrong, I still believe, Leica made a „not so good“ decision for the M11 colors (someone mentioned it was based on Kodachrome 64, but if you ever did a mixed slide show with Kodachrome and Ektachrome you know that Kodachrome was never neutral and Paul Simon is a good musician but a bad photographer) and I hope for an in-camera solution. But until then I want to use my M11 as efficient as possible.

All the best and listen to the song….

„Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
Give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's a sunny day, oh yeah
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama, don't take my Kodachrome away“

for the German speakers I cannot hesitate to quote Nina Hagen 

„Du hast den Farbfilm vergessen, mein Michael
Nun glaubt uns kein Mensch, wie schön's hier war, haha, haha
Du hast den Farbfilm vergessen bei meiner Seel
Alles blau und weiß und grün und später nicht mehr wahr“

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by jgeenen

[don daniel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jgeenen:

Interesting, something I‘d like to understand better. Can you post a sample or two? My profile „hack“ was done on a cloudy day and at least for me it seems to work reasonably well to remove the magenta cast under natural light conditions from rainy to sunny (which is more than I hoped for). I don’t believe it will work under artificial light as most modern light sources in the field have a unique cast that requires individual tuning anyhow.

Sorry, I made a mistake in Lightroom! You are right! Your profile hack works also on a cloudy day! I'll have to try if it is really different from simply moving the tint slider to the left, because I do not know any other camera that produces tint values of over +20 at AWB in normal daylight.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[hjddd]

We keep this thread hot to see what Leica will do in the coming new firmware^