Surreal waiting times for lens repair and maintenance at Leica Germany

[Stef63]

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Under EU law, repairs must be completed in a reasonable timeframe and without causing substantial inconvenience to the customer. If this cannot be achieved, the customer should be provided with either a replacement or a full refund. This applies as long as the product is still within the standard 2-year warranty period for EU customers.

In this case a waiting period of 5 to 7 months can be considered "unreasonable." As an EU customer, you have the right to request a refund from your dealer.

It might also be a good idea to inform Leica about this EU legislation :

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-guarantees/index_en.htm

Disclaimer : this applies to repairs under warranty. 

[Kl@usW.]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Stef63:

Under EU law, repairs must be completed in a reasonable timeframe and without causing substantial inconvenience to the customer. If this cannot be achieved, the customer should be provided with either a replacement or a full refund. This applies as long as the product is still within the standard 2-year warranty period for EU customers.

In this case a waiting period of 5 to 7 months can be considered "unreasonable." As an EU customer, you have the right to request a refund from your dealer.

It might also be a good idea to inform Leica about this EU legislation :

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-guarantees/index_en.htm

Disclaimer : this applies to repairs under warranty. 

Unfortunately the MP I bought  new 3 years ago at the Leica Shop Stuttgart became  unusable because of a severe light leak and is out of the warranty time now.  I contacted the shop and they told me a couple of days ago, that the turnover time for analog cameras is 10 month now. In other words: I spent 4500 € on a new camera that is marketed as the high end  of precision  and reliability  and now is useless. After one year , the camera already had to be sent to Wetzlar because the finder alignment was off. it took them 3 month irc to handle that, well in the warranty time. 

Apparently they are severely understaffed and/or overworked or have other priorities. My take on this:

Improve QC, so warranty jobs will not occupy labor. 

Stop producing nonsense like 50 Titanium Noctiluxes 0.95 and shift the staff to QC or Service

Think ahead and do the math

If my MP was still in the warranty time, I would ask for a refund since a repair time of 10 month is a kind of disappropriation and simply not covered by EU laws. 

I´ll wait for the outcome of this more than inconvenient situation and put all plans for further acquisitions of Leica equipment on hold. 

(btw:   I never had such problems with any other company. I had and have and use Canon digital and analog  and  a couple of Nikons. I don't even know the addresses of the CS of these brands simply because I didn't need to  so far.  The CLA  of 2 Hasselblad bodies and a couple of lenses after 20 years of use  took 4 weeks earlier this year ) 

Leica, I´m really pi**ed. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Kl@usW.

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[costa43]

I also have a 5 month wait on a lens CLA. The frustration is that Leica made it clear that 2023 has been a record year for sales/profits. It would be good to see some investment in aftercare so that their service reflects the price of their products a little more than it currently does. 

[WvE]

As long as it doesn't affect sales, it's probably not that high on the agenda in Wetzlar.   

[elmars]

Leica should communicate the reasons for the long service times. They are probably not happy with it themselves. Maybe they don't have enough staff because older employees have retired and they can't find skilled workers. Skilled workers are rare in Germany. Manufacturing staff cannot be used for repairs, as far as I know. But without an explanation from Leica, customers are just frustrated.

[Stuart Richardson]

Honestly, if they cannot find the workers in Germany, they should find them somewhere else. I wonder if they could shift some repairs to Portugal? They already have a large modern factory there with very many skilled workers. Or if that is also not possible, perhaps with an L mount alliance partner like Panasonic or Sigma, who already make lenses for them, after all. I agree...it is getting so out of control that I have not even sent in gear that needs work. I am sure this is also a side effect of making it harder for third party repair technicians. Now Leica itself has to deal with more repairs because there are fewer and fewer third party technicians around. Everyone seems to be either retiring or getting unable to sustain the business.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[Al Brown]

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30 minutes ago, elmars said:

Leica should communicate the reasons for the long service times. They are probably not happy with it themselves. Maybe they don't have enough staff because older employees have retired and they can't find skilled workers. Skilled workers are rare in Germany. Manufacturing staff cannot be used for repairs, as far as I know. But without an explanation from Leica, customers are just frustrated.

You are completely right. I have sent a follow up letter about the subject of unacceptable lead times asking for possible reasons, a vague explanation of the situation and an inquiry about whether things could be returning to normal in the future. No reply from Leica at all (the Customer Care is otherwise super responsive once you manage to engage with them via email).

[Borna]

This is scary, imagine buying a noctilux and have to wait 6-8 months for some guarantee repair. It would be interesting to hear if they have staffing issues or what is the problem

[Smudgerer]

This is a timely and at the same time a disturbing thread, I assume that Leica does read postings here on the forum but there's never any meaningful feedback from them whatever the subject matter of any thread which by itself must tell us all something about Wetzlar's attitude to their customers which is disappointing and annoying all at the same time.

There used to be until fairly recently a "Professional" customer service that was offered to certified professional users, you had to give tangible proof that you were a professional user of the Leica gear that needed attention. I being one that took advantage of that programme in past years, but now that programme seems to have evaporated. A minor repair/service to one of my M's has recently been quoted to take 4-6 months to turn around whereby before being registered with the "Professional" service it would have been a couple of weeks, maximum. I don't know now what to do regarding the needed adjustment to that camera, I can work around it for now and ok I do have back-up bodies, ( like in the past it was said to have a working Jaguar in your garage you need two ), but that is a rediculous option to have to fall back on when you consider the price we pay for these pieces of gear. I am not complaining here about any "fragility" with the products but like everyone else I would like to know that when any piece of gear needs repair or adjustment it would be possible to have that done in a timely manner, as it is now the situation is troubling to say the least.

I suspect that the "Professional" programme was abused to quite a degree by too many people resorting to it when in truth they were not professional, far from it, just slapping a P on the shipping box and hoping that it would fly in the fast lane without their Pro' status being checked. Perhaps because of abuse the programme just choked and Leica stopped it putting all repairs now into the one geriatric snail's pace overworked line. Anyway I suspect Leica really does not have that many profession users these days, I reckon they are only 10% of Leica M owners at best. As good as they may be the Leica cameras / systems simply are not rugged and reliable enough for professional work and the cost of having a good working Leica system with back-up redundency for a pro' is many times more than others that in truth can produce just as good results. With digital M's I never had them as my sole camera system when working a job, always took a Nikon kit too and there were occasions when that proved to be a wise decision.

I have a Leica lens that needs a CLA and being loath to send it off to Leica for half a year or more I found a well respected workshop that will do the work for me, ok once again the "lead-time" is long, they will do the CLA in February 2024, but the difference between having them do the job or Leica is that the lens is now booked in through their on-line service request form for a confirmed five days in February but I don't have to send it into them until they email me a request to do so a week prior to the scheduled date, how sensible is that? Leica please take note.

[Jewl]

I have posted this in another thread a couple of weeks ago but anyways, here we go again:

I have a summicron 50mm V4 which needs an adjustment as I cannot focus to infinity (cannot move the focus tab far enough to hit the moon for example). After they told me that they need at least 7 months (via the phone) I decided not to send it in, use it with my analog M or just throw it away. 

Just imagine you are a student (you name it) who has saved for months if not years to purchase one lens. He/she is dependent on this one lens and then should send it in for 7 months or even longer? I also had a discussion with the technician that I would expect that they tell me a timeframe (e.g. 2 weeks) when to hand in the lens at the latest (even if the date is 7 months in future) but I would not let a lens rest there for 7 months and then a technician repairs it in 1 or 2 weeks. They mentioned this is a problem with their systems as they cannot create any service orders for 7 months in future.

I understand that the service for old lenses is time consuming but nevertheless, nowadays such service times are not an option at all! Especially if you pay such huge amounts of money on the products. 

[charlesphoto99]

IMO, Leica really don't give a sh*t. As long as they can keep churning out new product to the well heeled who absolutely must have the next R, P, S closer focusing, vintage repro lenses, etc etc, then they'll just keep doing so. Which of course, more product that isn't fully vetted as it should be, will just lead to more repairs, and longer times, but as long as they consider their user base as 'rich' and their products as 'luxury' then it doesn't really matter to them, because those rich people must have multiple other bodies and lenses to get them through (which, of course, isn't always the case and shouldn't matter anyway). It's a sad state of affairs, esp. as some of us older users/pros have built a body of work using M's and would be hard pressed to find an equivalent UX, IQ, in other brands. We live in an age of more and more disposable income (for some), and I guess in this case it's come back to bite us as Leica haven't stepped up to do the right thing in regards to QC and service. 

[charlesphoto99]

@Jewl Are there no independent repair shops in Germany? I would never send a non-warranty lens to Leica. Not worth the wait time, and the potential that they don't actually fix the problem at great cost. 

[M9reno]

8 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

@Jewl Are there no independent repair shops in Germany? I would never send a non-warranty lens to Leica. Not worth the wait time, and the potential that they don't actually fix the problem at great cost. 

Independent repair shops, whether in Germany or anywhere else, are denied spare parts by Leica, so in principle cannot carry out repairs.

[Cronilux]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb elmars:

 Skilled workers are rare in Germany. 

What? This is in no way true at all.

[frame-it]

5 minutes ago, Cronilux said:

What? This is in no way true at all.

I'm guessing he probably meant skilled workers trained in repairing camera systems

Edited November 16, 2023 by frame-it

[LocalHero1953]

As an amateur, i.e. one of the majority of customers who provide Leica's profits and keep them going, I welcome the demise of the professional service programme, which would have diverted resources from those who were not eligible. Professional does not mean 'deserving cause' or 'charity'. (After all, it is the amateurs who are 'not-for-profits'😉)

[Jewl]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99:

@Jewl Are there no independent repair shops in Germany? I would never send a non-warranty lens to Leica. Not worth the wait time, and the potential that they don't actually fix the problem at great cost. 

Good question. Haven't thought about this tbh as I always thought due to the complexity of the lenses and also quality (might not be applicable anymore) Leica would be the best place for this. But overall, I do think in Germany there are mainly reseller not really repair / service center that could take care of the after sales situation except of being the (wo)man in the middle handling the dispatching and communication with the official Leica service. 

[charlesphoto99]

52 minutes ago, M9reno said:

Independent repair shops, whether in Germany or anywhere else, are denied spare parts by Leica, so in principle cannot carry out repairs.

I believe this only applies to digital bodies and not vintage bodies or lenses. If it was a blanket embargo, then the likes of DAG, etc would no longer be in business. Though perhaps I'm wrong and they're busy enough just doing CLA's and using what spare parts they have on hand if ever needed. I know DAG rescued my 135 APO from a previously, unaware to me, botched job. Took about three months, drilling out jammed screws etc, but it came back working good as new (just not looking it, no fault of his). 

[M9reno]

2 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I believe this only applies to digital bodies and not vintage bodies or lenses. If it was a blanket embargo, then the likes of DAG, etc would no longer be in business. Though perhaps I'm wrong and they're busy enough just doing CLA's and using what spare parts they have on hand if ever needed. I know DAG rescued my 135 APO from a previously, unaware to me, botched job. Took about three months, drilling out jammed screws etc, but it came back working good as new (just not looking it, no fault of his). 

I've been told by at least two independent UK repairers that even for vintage bodies or lenses no parts are forthcoming from Wetzlar, so it's a case of making do with whatever is at hand (or building parts from scratch).

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[TomB_tx]

DAG said that 2 years ago he "bought the entire Leitz, Canada Parts & repair departments" - likely because he couldn't get classic parts from Leica anymore.