Will the SL3 have a global shutter?

[SrMi]

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26 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I think that you will find that camera makers, including Leica, will be offering 24 MP cameras for the optimal usability/image quality balance and high-resolution cameras for specialized use side by side. And of course for more-is-better marketing. 

I wonder if Leica's multi-resolution technology will make the 24MP versions unnecessary. I believe the only advantages of 24MP cameras are cost and video (assuming the availability of multi-resolution raw files).

[jaapv]

I don't believe in multi resolution technology. It does not change the architecture of the sensor where the high-resolution problems originate.  It only limits the magnification which makes them less visible.

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[SrMi]

10 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I don't believe in multi resolution technology. It does not change the architecture of the sensor where the high-resolution problems originate.  It only limits the magnification which makes them less visible.

Which high-resolution problems are you thinking of? Apart from file size, I believe that high resolution has only advantages (less moire, more detail).

[jaapv]

Motion blur, purple fringing, crosstalk reducing colour acuity, enhancing lens issues, etc. High resolution sensors are great if you need extremely fine detail which does indeed reduce moiré as a side effect ( but how are you going to print it?) or do strong crops - it reduces the need for supertele lenses- but is does not add much to regular photography and has its own set of challenges and issues. In my book anything between 16 and 24 MP is the sweet spot. 

[algrove]

If one has shot for many years with an 18MP or 24MP Leica, you can see that the MP exaggerations of today are only marketing hype. This comes from one who prints 24x36" maximum.

 

Thus, for me,  the SL2S is plenty for stills and I could care less about video.  Lately I have heard many pros also feel like this and use the SL@S due to its 24MP sensor and not the SL 47MP sensor. They say they like large pixels.

[SrMi]

49 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Motion blur, purple fringing, crosstalk reducing colour acuity, enhancing lens issues, etc.

To the best of my knowledge, none of this is a problem with modern sensors when comparing at the same output size or using the reduced size raws. 

50 minutes ago, jaapv said:

High resolution sensors are great if you need extremely fine detail which does indeed reduce moiré as a side effect ( but how are you going to print it?) or do strong crops - it reduces the need for supertele lenses- but is does not add much to regular photography and has its own set of challenges and issues.

The finer detail and lack of moire are noticeable when printing small. It is arguable how much it matters. 

52 minutes ago, jaapv said:

In my book anything between 16 and 24 MP is the sweet spot.

Hence the availability of multi-resolution technology.

[SrMi]

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17 minutes ago, algrove said:

If one has shot for many years with an 18MP or 24MP Leica, you can see that the MP exaggerations of today are only marketing hype. This comes from one who prints 24x36" maximum.

 

Thus, for me,  the SL2S is plenty for stills and I could care less about video.  Lately I have heard many pros also feel like this and use the SL@S due to its 24MP sensor and not the SL 47MP sensor. They say they like large pixels.

 

The presumed positive effect of larger pixels is an urban myth. There are many improvements in SL2-S (less noise, better shadow recovery) unrelated to the pixel size.

[algrove]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

 

The presumed positive effect of larger pixels is an urban myth. There are many improvements in SL2-S (less noise, better shadow recovery) unrelated to the pixel size.

Maybe so but why does Peter Coulson and dePaola, who know more than most of us about pixels both use 24MP SL2S to their liking. Take a look at their utube sites or interviews on Leica Academie or Tamarkin camera and the tell me it is urban myth.

Edited November 11, 2023 by algrove

[SrMi]

36 minutes ago, algrove said:

Maybe so but why does Peter Coulson and dePaola, who know more than most of us about pixels both use 24MP SL2S to their liking. Take a look at their utube sites or interviews on Leica Academie or Tamarkin camera and the tell me it is urban myth.

SL2-S has a sensor with newer technology than SL2. You should compare Z7 vs. Z6 and a7IV vs. a7rIV (different pixel sizes, same technology). Nobody picks lower-resolution cameras because of better IQ (assuming sensors with similar technology).

[algrove]

46 minutes ago, SrMi said:

 Nobody picks lower-resolution cameras because of better IQ (assuming sensors with similar technology).

How can you make such a blanket statement?

Those 2 pros I mentioned made their choices on results they saw, not on sensor specs. See Coulson comments on Mr Leica video for example. When I asked de Paulo about why he did not use the SL2, he only mentioned pixel size and his ease of PP his 24MP captures.

[Paul2660]

The A9 will have a base ISO of 250 and supposedly less dynamic range of a non global sensor like the 60MP sensor. Odds are not the best sensor for a landscape stills oriented camera like the follow on to the SL2. May be a better fit for a SL2-S follow on. 
 

Paul 

[frankchn]

14 hours ago, BernardC said:

Do the Q3 and M11 share a sensor? That means that the M has (dormant) PDAF. Is there any evidence. How do we explain that the two sensors test differently? All evidence points to the two sensors being different. That doesn't rule-out a common vendor, of course.

There are lots of reasons why the same silicon can test differently on different cameras or have different specifications — most of it to do with the optical stack in front of the camera and the processing it applies afterwards.
 

For instance, the X2D and GFX100 definitely shares the same silicon, but the X2D has a lower base ISO and different color rendering because it has a stronger color filter array.

[Jeff S]

On 11/10/2023 at 2:28 PM, frankchn said:

They did it with the SL2. The 47.3 MP sensor was launched with the Panasonic S1R in January 2019, then Leica Q2 in March 2019, then the SL2 in November 2019, then the M10-R in June 2020, then finally the Q2M in November 2020.

 

The sensors in the M10-R and M10 Monochrom were derived from the S3 sensor wafer, resulting in 40.89 MP, and included several architectural and technological advantages over the M10 sensor design.

Jeff

[BernardC]

18 hours ago, SrMi said:

Neither M11 nor Sigma fp-L have PDAF.

The fp-L has PDAF, which leaves the M11 as the only 60 MP full-frame sensor without PDAF, and the best-performing 60MP full-frame sensor by far. Draw your own conclusions.

[BernardC]

8 hours ago, frankchn said:

For instance, the X2D and GFX100 definitely shares the same silicon, but the X2D has a lower base ISO and different color rendering because it has a stronger color filter array.

We aren't talking about differences where the response curve seems to be shifted-over to the left or right. That effect has been known for a long time, with Sony cameras choosing weaker colour filters in order to emphasize "speed" at the expense of colour accuracy.

What we are talking about if cameras that supposedly use the same sensor, but have response curves with materially different shapes. In many cases, the curve shapes are better matches to other sensors from different families.

It goes without saying that internet experts always know for sure who is using what sensor, before manufacturers have made their choice, but those type of results sow a seed of doubt in those of us who aren't blessed with this prescience, and who look at the data instead.

Some people here may be unaware of this story: when the SL2 came-out, insiders had no idea which sensor it would use until the official reveal. Leica had tested two different sensors in prototypes: Panasonic's 47 MP, and the M10P's 41 MP sensor. For all we know, they tested Sony's 60 MP sensor too.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

The fp-L has PDAF, which leaves the M11 as the only 60 MP full-frame sensor without PDAF, and the best-performing 60MP full-frame sensor by far. Draw your own conclusions.

Thank you for the correction, my mistake.

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

We aren't talking about differences where the response curve seems to be shifted-over to the left or right. That effect has been known for a long time, with Sony cameras choosing weaker colour filters in order to emphasize "speed" at the expense of colour accuracy.

What we are talking about if cameras that supposedly use the same sensor, but have response curves with materially different shapes. In many cases, the curve shapes are better matches to other sensors from different families.

It goes without saying that internet experts always know for sure who is using what sensor, before manufacturers have made their choice, but those type of results sow a seed of doubt in those of us who aren't blessed with this prescience, and who look at the data instead.

Some people here may be unaware of this story: when the SL2 came-out, insiders had no idea which sensor it would use until the official reveal. Leica had tested two different sensors in prototypes: Panasonic's 47 MP, and the M10P's 41 MP sensor. For all we know, they tested Sony's 60 MP sensor too.

I was speaking to a Leica employee about this once, as I asked him why the SL2 sensor was not used in the S3. I was asking because I loved the sensor in the SL2, but did not really like the one in the S3. He mentioned that Leica typically had two different sensor lines because the M and S used sensors where the sensor itself was not optimized to be on continuously, while the SL and Q series needed a sensor that was capable of continuous operation. I don't know enough about sensors to know why this changed, but clearly the M11 is the first M to use a sensor geared more towards continuous operation. I believe they used this to do the metering now, as opposed to metering off the shutter.

In any case, I agree with Bernard here. Leica has always been kind of unpredictable with sensors...choosing lesser known vendors on a pretty regular basis. I think this is also because they typically require custom features, such as offset microlenses. It certainly would not be a big surprise if they kept using the 60mp sensor in the M11, but the other side of the coin is that they are in pretty close partnership with Panasonic, while also apparently developing an S4 mirrorless in 2025+. I don't think that 60mp sensor will still be viable from 2025-2029, so there is the chance that they will use whatever new sensor Panasonic uses for the SL3, and then double that sensor up for use in the S4, like they did with the M9 and S2/S006. That would minimize their development costs and makes a lot of sense if their two mirrorless cameras shared the same tech. Anyway, again, all just speculation. I agree with the rest though that a global shutter does not sound like it is on the horizon soon for Leica...does not really play to their strengths.

[Richardgb]

20 hours ago, SrMi said:

SL2-S has a sensor with newer technology than SL2. You should compare Z7 vs. Z6 and a7IV vs. a7rIV (different pixel sizes, same technology). Nobody picks lower-resolution cameras because of better IQ (assuming sensors with similar technology).

Oh yes they do. You're reading a post from a 'nobody'.

In any case 'resolution' is only one dimesnion of IQ.

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, Richardgb said:

Oh yes they do. You're reading a post from a 'nobody'.

In any case 'resolution' is only one dimesnion of IQ.

My point was that you cannot have better IQ by picking lower resolution (everything else equal).

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[Richardgb]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

My point was that you cannot have better IQ by picking lower resolution (everything else equal).

But eveything else cannot be equal - there's no such thing as a free lunch.

To take one example, higher resolution (from different sensors which were available at a given time, i.e. the same generation, and processed through the same on-board 'engine' and software) generally results in more noise (i.e. lower signal-noise ratio). Take, as an example, the Lumix S1 and S1R (or their Leica equivalents). Please read the test reports.