Leica M11-P: New Flagship With Content Authentication

[RMF]

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1 hour ago, thrid said:

My guess is that the new chip probably provides extra processing power to operate on captured images on the fly. A software solution may be possible, but would be much slower

No a software solution would not have the same level of security and trust along the food chain as to what Leica has implemented in the M11p and which the CAI have established. An authenticated chip from a trusted source is the only way to achieve this.

[LBJ2]

12 minutes ago, mujk said:

I guess Leica has identified a potential need for Content Authentication, although personally I have not had a need for it. Proving that an image was not generated or modified by AI?

Canon apparently identified a potential need almost 20 years ago and offered something with similar functionality as an addon for certain 1D models:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3146736527/canondvke2

The M11-P implementation is of course more sophisticated.

Current partners here to include Nikon, Canon: 

https://contentauthenticity.org/our-members

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[LBJ2]

"How it works

The Content Authenticity Initiative is a group working together to fight misinformation and add a layer of verifiable trust to all types of digital content, starting with photo and video, through provenance and attribution solutions. We’re creating a secure end-to-end system for digital content provenance through open-source development, cross-industry collaboration, and interoperability of tools. Our work is fully compliant with the technical specifications released in 2022 by the Coalition for Content Provenance and Authenticity (C2PA).

Learn more below about our secure workflow, following a piece of content from capture to edit to publish or sharing on social media below. "

https://contentauthenticity.org/how-it-works

Edited October 26, 2023 by LBJ2

[MyLeicaWorld]

Is it different than the copyright menu on M11 ? Because you can enter your information in this menu on M11 as well ..

[MyLeicaWorld]

2 hours ago, Winedemonium said:

It's pretty, like all the -Ps have been. But nothing here technology-wise that makes me want to switch from my M10-R black paint. I'll keep my mind open for the M12 when that comes, but so far, nothing really to see here as far as I'm concerned. 

You can definitely have your M11’s top plate engraved for 350 euros at Wetzlar and you’ll have M11P .. if I’ll have a trip to Wetzlar I am seriously considering it ..

[RMF]

3 minutes ago, MyLeicaWorld said:

Is it different than the copyright menu on M11 ? Because you can enter your information in this menu on M11 as well ..

Yes, different. That metadata could be easily changed or altered.  

[setuporg]

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1 hour ago, ivohula said:

Oh, did you hear; there is a new M11, it's just like the old M11, but only a few hundred dollars more...

 

But seriously, there may be a new anti-theft angle on this CAI feature. Theoretically, if a camera prints its unique signature on every image and the camera is stolen, we should be able to track the camera to a new user if the new user publishes any photos taken with that camera. I see privacy issues but is Leica willing to snitch out thieves? Big brother could be watching for stolen M11-Ps. Are time stamps on each photo available as well? Unalterable GPS info on each photo would be helpful here also. Like I said, big privacy issues.

Anti-theft would be great, but looks like CAI function is optional and could be turned off.  An embedded AirTag that's always on would be better...

[Hanno]

31 minutes ago, MyLeicaWorld said:

Is it different than the copyright menu on M11 ? Because you can enter your information in this menu on M11 as well ..

I understand the purpose of the CAI differently. The copyright is about protecting your ownership of the photo. The CAI is more about enabling to see how much or little the image was altered, so that you can demonstrate the image is "accurate" or "truthful". It's not about chasing typical edit / post production work, but more those adding or removing elements or faking an image with AI, etc which is an issue in photojournalism. Unless you are a photojournalist, this may not be important to you.

For more info, a video from Nick Rains. Apologies as I posted it in a different discussion but I think it may help here as well.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hanno

[Chaemono]

Yes, the M11-P seems to be geared towards Pros. Some amateurs would have preferred an updated version of the M11 with a modern 24 MP sensor instead. I don’t CAI about the M11-P, I‘m afraid. 😁

[Chuck Albertson]

56 minutes ago, mujk said:

I guess Leica has identified a potential need for Content Authentication, although personally I have not had a need for it. Proving that an image was not generated or modified by AI?

Canon apparently identified a potential need almost 20 years ago and offered something with similar functionality as an addon for certain 1D models:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3146736527/canondvke2

The M11-P implementation is of course more sophisticated.

Well, it is tipped towards photojournalists, and the CAI is backed by a number of media orgs (the Beeb, the New York Times, WSJ, WaPost, etc.) that have an interest in authenticating the source of photos and how they've been messed with edited (see, e.g., https://contentcredentials.org/). It should also serve to sort out real pictures from the stuff cranked out by degenerate AI. Of course, nothing can protect even an authenticated photo from the idiots on social media (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67206277), but it should cut down on the number of tiresome tweets.

[bcaslis]

10 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Yes, the M11-P seems to be geared towards Pros. Some amateurs would have preferred an updated version of the M11 with a modern 24 MP sensor instead. I don’t CAI about the M11-P, I‘m afraid. 😁

A modern 24MP sensor? The M11 has a modern 60MP sensor, it's one of the main reasons I bought it.

[adrianh]

 

[thrid]

1 hour ago, Chuck Albertson said:

Well, it is tipped towards photojournalists, and the CAI is backed by a number of media orgs (the Beeb, the New York Times, WSJ, WaPost, etc.) that have an interest in authenticating the source of photos and how they've been messed with edited (see, e.g., https://contentcredentials.org/). It should also serve to sort out real pictures from the stuff cranked out by degenerate AI. Of course, nothing can protect even an authenticated photo from the idiots on social media (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67206277), but it should cut down on the number of tiresome tweets.

It's also important for law enforcement and court cases. I remember back when the move from film to digital was happening that there was a lot of debate about the admission of digitally captured images in court, because they are so easily manipulated.

The argument was that you can always go back to a film negative to prove that the image wasn't manipulated, but there was a level distrust when it camera to digital RAW files.

In response Sony offered a special SD card that had certain properties. I can't remember if it was write-once or something along those lines, but at least in Japan that made digitally captured images admissible as evidence.

Authentication of an image is going to become more critical in the future, with the rise of AI generated imagery. So, this is actually pretty cool, regardless of the fact that 95% of photojournalist can't afford an M11 kit. 😉

Personally I think nothing beats a film negative though for authenticity, but there is no way we are going back to that. Ultimately you can stage any picture, but that another story. But a film neg is pretty hard to fake and it's easy to tell if it was manipulated and regenerated on a film recorder.

Edited October 26, 2023 by thrid

[mujk]

36 minutes ago, Hanno said:

I understand the purpose of the CAI differently. The copyright is about protecting your ownership of the photo. The CAI is more about enabling to see how much or little the image was altered, so that you can demonstrate the image is "accurate" or "truthful". It's not about chasing typical edit / post production work, but more those adding or removing elements or faking an image with AI, etc which is an issue in photojournalism. Unless you are a photojournalist, this may not be important to you.

For more info, a video from Nick Rains. Apologies as I posted it in a different discussion but I think it may help here as well.

 

 

This is how I understand it as well. If CAI information is removed from the image file there is nothing that indicates its origin or protects it from modifications (e.g. a digital watermark). But if CAI information is preserved throughout the workflow there will be a trace back to the original image captured by the camera. However, the M11-P manual a bit vague on what is included in CAI regarding the origin:

"Signing the images with this function allows you to add allocation details to each frame. They contain information about the identity of the creator, as well as data in compliance with the C2PA standard regarding the specific camera used for taking the images."

Clearly, the identity of the creator is not possible to authenticate, because this is just any text entered by the user in the copyright and produced by fields. But is there any  information thst would pinpoint the specific camera used, e.g. serial number? At least the video does not seem to show any such information.

[maidenfan84]

I think the CAI will open up some new possibilities for contests, etc. they can create a category now of “unedited” photos and straight out of the camera. Will be interesting to see contests and shows that rely on camera skills more than editing skills, of which can be now verified if the original photos have been edited or tampered with in any way. 

[StephenH]

As a film user, I would advocate and encourage the use of film cameras to REALLY authenticate the image.  Just show everyone the negative of the UFO, etc.

I can't even being to understand the technical aspects of what Leica is offering, but I suspect that its "Metadata" can be hacked like anything else.  

[Hanno]

27 minutes ago, maidenfan84 said:

I think the CAI will open up some new possibilities for contests, etc. they can create a category now of “unedited” photos and straight out of the camera. Will be interesting to see contests and shows that rely on camera skills more than editing skills, of which can be now verified if the original photos have been edited or tampered with in any way. 

Apart from photojournalism and court-related cases, I don't understand nor agree with that camera versus editing skills debate. Both are part of producing a final impactful image. Extensive techniques used by professional printers in their darkroom in the last century were the ancestors of today's editing skills.

As one example, a SOOC landscape contest would have no interest to me and wouldn't prove much either, if only for landscape shots with highlights protected which is meant to address the digital camera's limited DR versus human eyes, etc. 

Having said that, maybe you are right and such categories will appear. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hanno

[thrid]

32 minutes ago, maidenfan84 said:

I think the CAI will open up some new possibilities for contests, etc. they can create a category now of “unedited” photos and straight out of the camera. Will be interesting to see contests and shows that rely on camera skills more than editing skills, of which can be now verified if the original photos have been edited or tampered with in any way. 

I agree. There needs to be some verification process for photo contests.

It's one thing to dodge, burn and crop and image, but it is now common for people to submit heavily manipulated images to contests that really aren't photographs anymore, but photo illustrations.

Once you start manipulation the actual content by removing, augmenting or otherwise modifying an image beyond its original state you have crossed a line. 

There are too many people out there who attempt to pass off these manipulated images, as actual 'as captured' moments. That's cheating and there needs to be some kind of process to verify the authenticity of the image. 

 

What made someone like HCB special was his gift to create his extraordinary images in camera, with little to no manipulation in the printing. 
Assembling an image of similar quality in post is not the same thing.

[algrove]

6 hours ago, DrM said:

It already does: https://leica-camera.com/sites/default/files/en_2.0.1-m-family-release-notes.pdf

 

It says ONLY for the M11P

6 hours ago, DrM said:

It already does: https://leica-camera.com/sites/default/files/en_2.0.1-m-family-release-notes.pdf

 

 

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[algrove]

10 minutes ago, thrid said:

I

 

What made someone like HCB special was his gift to create his extraordinary images in camera, with little to no manipulation in the printing. 
 

I beg your pardon but if you ever had some time with HCB's printer in Paris, he manipulated images a lot. He is now deceased, but Peter Turnley can also verify this today.