M11 Motion blur is driving me crazy(!)

[wijsbroek]

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47 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I don't see any motion blur or camera shake in this image either, but I do see focus blur, and that the point of focus is at or closer to us than the tip of the arrow.

You don't say where you have focused, other than on the arrow. Where on the arrow did you focus?

I think you need a better test shot, where you have enough detail across the image to see exactly where it is in focus. (Though anyone criticising you for not posting a great photograph deserves the push back you gave them.) Pick a slatted fence or a brick wall, mark a target on it (just to identify where to focus), and photograph it at an angle. (Don't focus and recompose, because that leads to problems with focus plane shift - place your target in the focus patch for shooting.) You can then see if the rangefinder or (less likely) the lens need recalibration.

Edit. I see you say you used the EVF not rangefinder. I still think you need to use a better test shot to see if you are actually focusing where you think you are.

Thank you for your feedback. I focussed on the tip of the arrow. I'm quite sure it isn't a focus issue. I just went through my photos and I think this issue occurs when the subject is further away. Portraits show no problem. See this image, which is just a very small part of the shot. 

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[wijsbroek]

2 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

50 is pretty darn close to 35. You may want to consider a 75 or 90 first as a second lens. Or something wider. 

I know 😅! I usually only use 35 or 50. Mostly 50. I choose the 35 first for practical reasons. 

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[charlesphoto99]

I would also recommend you use and get familiar with the rangefinder, as that can be much quicker and even more accurate at times than the EVF, which I rarely use except in unique situations (last time was on a flight because my children always insist on the window seat, so in order to shoot out the window and frame properly the EVF came in handy). 

[wijsbroek]

5 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I would also recommend you use and get familiar with the rangefinder, as that can be much quicker and even more accurate at times than the EVF, which I rarely use except in unique situations (last time was on a flight because my children always insist on the window seat, so in order to shoot out the window and frame properly the EVF came in handy). 

Thank you. I'm using a hybrid setup now. First I focus with the rangefinder (which is surprisingly good, especially in low light), than I check everything in the EVF. 

 

[charlesphoto99]

5 minutes ago, wijsbroek said:

Thank you for your feedback. I focussed on the tip of the arrow. I'm quite sure it isn't a focus issue. I just went through my photos and I think this issue occurs when the subject is further away. Portraits show no problem. See this image, which is just a very small part of the shot. 

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Try shooting a ruler at an angle, as pedantic as that is. To me it appears as if the lens might be front focusing just a bit, though that would be covered by depth of field at larger apertures and/or might beg from the slightest movement between focusing and taking. 1.4 is tricky on M’s and imo mostly reserved for atmospheric type shots where the focus doesn’t have to be perfect. 1.4 was incredibly useful in the film days, but now mostly just for show/effect as higher iso’s are available without much loss in quality. 

[wijsbroek]

5 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Try shooting a ruler at an angle, as pedantic as that is. To me it appears as if the lens might be front focusing just a bit, though that would be covered by depth of field at larger apertures and/or might beg from the slightest movement between focusing and taking. 1.4 is tricky on M’s and imo mostly reserved for atmospheric type shots where the focus doesn’t have to be perfect. 1.4 was incredibly useful in the film days, but now mostly just for show/effect as higher iso’s are available without much loss in quality. 

Will do! Thanks again 🙂

[Alan Friedman]

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I'm sorry if this was already covered in the previous pages, but you are using the electronic shutter on the first image. This can present unique problems due to the slow readout time of the sensor. Try an exposure with the mechanical shutter (max 1/4000 sec) and see if the problem persists.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Alan Friedman

[earleygallery]

You need to put the camera on a tripod and take some new test shots at various apertures.

You can then eliminate camera shake and determine what exactly you’re looking at, mid focused, lens aberration, focus shift etc. 

[wdahab]

The first picture, for any lens at f/1.4, even ASPH and modern, the corner sharpness isn't going to be there, ever. Attached is the official MTF chart for the 35mm Lux FLE ASPH and you can see that corner is going to be weak no matter what. For the other photo, of the eye, we need context. Where in the photo is that crop taken from? If it's near the center, then it's apples to oranges comparison. If it's also all the way in the corner, like the first photo, well, then that would be more interesting.

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[jaapv]

I would recommend the Voigtländer Heliar 75. An impeccable lens and quite affordable. 

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, wijsbroek said:

Thank you. I'm using a hybrid setup now. First I focus with the rangefinder (which is surprisingly good, especially in low light), than I check everything in the EVF. 

 

I think that is a bit out of character for an  M. It is more of a reportage type of camera. 

 

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I would also recommend you use and get familiar with the rangefinder, as that can be much quicker and even more accurate at times than the EVF, which I rarely use except in unique situations (last time was on a flight because my children always insist on the window seat, so in order to shoot out the window and frame properly the EVF came in handy). 

I quite agree. You paid an awful lot of money for a camera system, of which a sizeable portion went to the essence of the camera: the optical viewfinder and the rangefinder. The EVF can be useful from time to time but is just an accessory. 

There has always been and still is a different approach to photography by using a rangefinder camera. With an EVF (or an SLR for that matter) you are looking AT the image you taking. With an OVF you are INSIDE the image you are taking. Please leave the EVF at home during the first months of use, even if you will be cursing the lack of it occasionally. Your photography will become far more satisfactory. 
The reason? You will be concentrating on the content of your photographs instead of fiddling with technology.

 

And read this post:

Quote

Question: I come from an autofocus camera background. What is the best way to get good focus on the M?

The M works the same way as any rangefinder camera, the central patch in the viewfinder is your focussing tool.
It is important to look through the viewfinder in the optical axis. Looking into the camera skewed will result in inaccurate focus.

The first thing to do is to ascertain that you can see the rangefinder patch properly. A correct match between the rangefinder and your eye is even more important than it is using an SLR.
Leica sells corrective diopter lenses. Determining which one you need - if any- can be done by going to your optician and holding his try-out lenses between your eye and the viewfinder. The one that allows you to see the rangefinder patch and framelines sharply is the correct one. Order the nearest value from Leica. In a pinch you can use over-the-counter reading glasses for this test. If your eyes need special corrections, you can use your spectacles, provided you can see clearly at 2 meters distance ( the virtual distance of the rangefinder patch).



Once the viewfinder is corrected optimally, there are three methods of focussing, in ascending order of difficulty aka training.

1. The broken line method. Look for a vertical line in the image and bring it together in the rangefinder patch to be continuous.

2. The coincidence method. Look for a pattern in the image and bring it together to coincide. This may lead to errors with repeating patterns.

3. For advanced users: The contrast method. Once you have focus by method 1. or 2. a small adjustment will cause the rangefinder patch to "jump" into optimum contrast. At that point you have the most precise focussing adjustment.

Side remarks:

For special cases there are viewfinder magnifiers. They can help, especially with longer and fast lenses and they can give confidence, but they can also be not very useful; they cannot correct errors in the focussing mechanism. Leica offers a 1.25x one and a 1.4x. These need diopter correction like the camera, but often of a different value than the camera viewfinder.

If you try focussing on a subject emitting polarized light like a reflection it may happen that the polarizing effect of the prism system in the rangefinder will blot out the contrast in the rangefinder patch, making focusing difficult. In that case rotate the camera 90 degrees to focus.

Note that when one focuses and recomposes the camera will turn. For geometrical reasons one must bend slightly backwards to keep the focussing distance constant.

 

 

 

[wijsbroek]

2 hours ago, Alan Friedman said:

I'm sorry if this was already covered in the previous pages, but you are using the electronic shutter on the first image. This can present unique problems due to the slow readout time of the sensor. Try an exposure with the mechanical shutter (max 1/4000 sec) and see if the problem persists.

Thanks, I am having the same problems with the mechanical shutter. Just at f/1.4 and at some distance (ie. not with portraits).

[wijsbroek]

2 hours ago, earleygallery said:

You need to put the camera on a tripod and take some new test shots at various apertures.

You can then eliminate camera shake and determine what exactly you’re looking at, mid focused, lens aberration, focus shift etc. 

Yes, I thought about that. Will do soon! Thank you!

[wijsbroek]

1 hour ago, wdahab said:

The first picture, for any lens at f/1.4, even ASPH and modern, the corner sharpness isn't going to be there, ever. Attached is the official MTF chart for the 35mm Lux FLE ASPH and you can see that corner is going to be weak no matter what. For the other photo, of the eye, we need context. Where in the photo is that crop taken from? If it's near the center, then it's apples to oranges comparison. If it's also all the way in the corner, like the first photo, well, then that would be more interesting.

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Thank you. I posted the eye to demonstrate the ability to have a really sharp photo taken with this M11 combo. It seems to me that closer focussing works better. (The eye is in the middle of the picture though)

[wijsbroek]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I think that is a bit out of character for an  M. It is more of a reportage type of camera. 

 

I quite agree. You paid an awful lot of money for a camera system, of which a sizeable portion went to the essence of the camera: the optical viewfinder and the rangefinder. The EVF can be useful from time to time but is just an accessory. 

There has always been and still is a different approach to photography by using a rangefinder camera. With an EVF (or an SLR for that matter) you are looking AT the image you taking. With an OVF you are INSIDE the image you are taking. Please leave the EVF at home during the first months of use, even if you will be cursing the lack of it occasionally. Your photography will become far more satisfactory. 
The reason? You will be concentrating on the content of your photographs instead of fiddling with technology.

 

And read this post:

 

 

Thank you Jaap! I sense you've got a lot of Leica experience! 

[wdahab]

51 minutes ago, wijsbroek said:

Thank you. I posted the eye to demonstrate the ability to have a really sharp photo taken with this M11 combo. It seems to me that closer focussing works better. (The eye is in the middle of the picture though)

But it's not an aspect where "close focusing" will work better or not. It's that every camera and f1.4 lens will be blurry in the corners or sides at any distance, close or far, even if you used the EVF to do the focusing and nail it. The inherent physics of the lens/aperture/angles will make it a bit smeary no matter what. It's not an M11 or Summilux issue or "motion blur" or camera shake issue, or lack of quality/refinement. Any wide-open full frame lens (at least that's been developed to this day) on any system is going to be inherently soft in the corners no matter the distance, close or far, at f1.4. It's one of the reasons why the APOs are so sharp, but don't go below f2.

[chris7273]

3 hours ago, wijsbroek said:

First I focus with the rangefinder (which is surprisingly good, especially in low light), than I check everything in the EVF. 

 

Then you have an error of 20-30 centimeters between the two methods 

[jaapv]

5 minutes ago, wdahab said:

But it's not an aspect where "close focusing" will work better or not. It's that every camera and f1.4 lens will be blurry in the corners or sides at any distance, close or far, even if you used the EVF to do the focusing and nail it. The inherent physics of the lens/aperture/angles will make it a bit smeary no matter what. It's not an M11 or Summilux issue or "motion blur" or camera shake issue, or lack of quality/refinement. Any wide-open full frame lens (at least that's been developed to this day) on any system is going to be inherently soft in the corners no matter the distance, close or far, at f1.4. It's one of the reasons why the APOs are so sharp, but don't go below f2.

Especially when it is restricted in size by a rangefinder system Just look at the bulk of the very best lenses on the market today: the Leica SL APO line and the Sigma Art line. 

[pgh]

5 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

50 is pretty darn close to 35. You may want to consider a 75 or 90 first as a second lens. Or something wider. 

Close and yet an entirely different view of the world. It's the first two (and often only two) lenses I have for any system for decades! Can't buy a better pair IMO. A short tele is the best third option IMO. 

Way too many people shoot wider and waste space too often. 

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[dugby]

This is a useful focus tool that I use whenever I want to check lens focusing and fine tune my handholding slow shutter speeds

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