My new M11 is bricked... Leica Spain

[Chimichurri]

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3 minutes ago, lct said:

Do you think that this pic is out of focus really? As a 100% crop i don't think i can do better with any camera but perhaps i'm getting too old as you seem to suggest so kindly...

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If you were focusing on the bee, No. But if you shot it at f8 then a lot of it will be acceptably in focus. 

If you can see motion blur just up the shutter speed. More megapixels. More detail. More visible blur. It’s that simple. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Chimichurri

[250swb]

2 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

If you were focusing on the bee, No. But if you shot it at f8 then a lot of it will be acceptably in focus. 

If you can see motion blur just up the shutter speed. More megapixels. More detail. More visible blur. It’s that simple. 

This is seems like a challenge for better bee pictures, you go for it, you are the man.

[Huss]

Speaking of bees, there was a story on public radio about how young bumble bees play with toys.  Some scientists left wooden balls around, and the young bees would fly down, play, roll them around etc, while the older bees ignored them.

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/05/1134355887/bumblebees-can-play-does-it-mean-they-have-feelings-study-says-yes

[Kwesi]

5 minutes ago, Huss said:

Speaking of bees, there was a story on public radio about how young bumble bees play with toys.  Some scientists left wooden balls around, and the young bees would fly down, play, roll them around etc, while the older bees ignored them.

Now if only the scientist would stick IBIS in the wooden balls, then surely the older bees could join in the fun. 😇

[lct]

2 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

If you were focusing on the bee, No. But if you shot it at f8 then a lot of it will be acceptably in focus.

This pic has been shot at f/2 and 1/250s, as you can see in the exif data, and was focused on the bee indeed. Handheld please. Not that bad for an oldie and it proves the opposite to what you were claiming it seems to me. 

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, Chimichurri said:

It already has an EVF. Just keep making that better.

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Now who just made an M into a hunchback SL2 without IBIS or AF? Lol.

[hdmesa]

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8 hours ago, Chimichurri said:

They sort of created this problems by giving the M11 a 60MP sensor and super sharp lenses. They’re taking the simple rangefinder to where it didn’t need to go. 

40MP is a lot and doesn’t create this problem of IBIS. 
 

Right. So get rid of the M and just make another mirrorless camera. 🤷🏻‍♂️ what’s the point of having it?

You could have everything then. 100Mp. 10 axis IBIS. 9M dot EVF 240fps (just like real life!), super big battery. A grip. tilt screen (sony makes the best ones), auto focus (why bother manual focusing), eye tracking, animal tracking. A PASM dial. 

That would all make it so much easier. 

You could have a 60mm 1:1 Macro. And lct would be able to hand hold a rain drop on a flower at 1/2s. Amazing. The menu could be like 20 pages deep of features.

Edit raw files in camera too. Fuji can do it 🤷🏻‍♂️

Let’s throw more things at it. 

You can’t say let’s have IBIS and think that will be all of it. what about the Leica M13? What’s the new feature there. You already have the IBIS. So let’s keep going. 

At the end of this road there is no more M. there’s an M impostor. Another mirrorless camera that looks like a Leica M just for posers. 

Personally I think the M11 already went too far with this 60MP sensor that creates problems on a simple rangefinder (like the need for IBIS for instance). 

So one could say the M11 marks the beginning of the end for the Leica M rangefinder. We can already see it with people wanting more and more tech to be added to the M. what about this or that or the other.

So RIP.

The M already has the tech it needs. A meter and a good viewfinder that doesn’t flare and lets you see things clearly. And that’s all it needs to be. The only thing that I would add is a mechanical shutter that can go to 1/8000s. That would be a great upgrade. 

In terms of the viewfinder . Instead of EVFs all it needs is a zoomable finder. The Fuji XPro2 could magnify the OVF. If the Leica M viewfinder could have 2 magnifications it would be awesome. 

That’s why I say, those who just want the last true great Leica M digital rangefinder better get on the M10R before they stop making them. 

You won't dissuade me from saying IBIS is a worthwhile feature could it be fitted in an M without other sacrifices. Your post is the definition of the phrase "throwing out the baby with the bath water".

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Now who just made an M into a hunchback SL2 without IBIS or AF? Lol.

And with a dramatically worse EVF.

Jeff

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

And with a dramatically worse EVF.

Jeff

But at least dramatically better than the Visoflex 020 that preceded it

 

[Chimichurri]

14 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

You won't dissuade me from saying IBIS is a worthwhile feature could it be fitted in an M without other sacrifices. Your post is the definition of the phrase "throwing out the baby with the bath water".

It could be. Many things make everything easier. That’s the point. It can’t stop at IBIS. It won’t.

Most great photographs, could be argued all, were taken when IBIS didn’t exist.

But yes. IBIS is in fact very useful. Can’t deny that. I just think it has no place in a rangefinder. 

It should be all manual, simple and niche. Just the same as a film M but on an SD card. Improvements should only be for speed, so it acts as fast and smooth as a film camera, and the rangefinder. Make it more clear and nice to use. Maybe even custom order your preferred magnification. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Chimichurri

[hdmesa]

13 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

It could be. Many things make everything easier. That’s the point. It can’t stop at IBIS. It won’t.

There is no logic to this argument. Are you saying an M will morph into an AI-based robot one day? Sounds like a sky-is-falling fear-based argument. 

 

13 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

Most great photographs, could be argued all, were taken when IBIS didn’t exist.

Anything could be argued, as you're doing right now! Sounds more like advocating for a film M versus the nuance of how to keep the soul of the digital M true to its origins. I don't see how IBIS affects that.

 

13 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

But yes. IBIS is in fact very useful. Can’t deny that. I just think it has no place in a rangefinder. 

An illogical and emotion-based statement promoting the worn-out slippery slope argument.

 

13 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

It should be all manual, simple and niche. Just the same as a film M but on an SD card. Improvements should only be for speed, so it acts as fast and smooth as a film camera, and the rangefinder. Make it more clear and nice to use. Maybe even custom order your preferred magnification. 

All manual is a film M. The closest thing for digital would be the M10-D.

The only reason to reject IBIS for the M has nothing to do with anything you've said. It has to do with the fact that to include IBIS in the M-sized body, they will likely have to remove the mechanical shutter and use a stacked sensor with a readout speed fast enough to avoid rolling shutter. I don't think that kills the soul of the M, but I would give you that leeway if you did think so. Around something like this, I can concede you could have a viable argument.

 

 

[Chimichurri]

37 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

It has to do with the fact that to include IBIS in the M-sized body, they will likely have to remove the mechanical shutter and use a stacked sensor with a readout speed fast enough to avoid rolling shutter.

I’m sure we all want the Leica M with a speaker and a fake shutter sound. Perfect. 😅

Maybe also a haptic motor like on the iPhone to fake the sensation of the shutter.

This is exactly what I’m talking about. IBIS and what follows ibis will be the end of the M. And I don’t want to be developing film to shoot a real mechanical M rangefinder camera. 

Eh anyway. My M is the last body I’ll buy. So I really don’t care. It’s just sad to see. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Chimichurri

[hdmesa]

11 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

I’m sure we all want the Leica M with a speaker and a fake shutter sound. Perfect. 😅

Maybe also a haptic motor like on the iPhone to fake the sensation of the shutter.

This is exactly what I’m talking about. IBIS and what follows ibis will be the end of the M. And I don’t want to be developing film to shoot a real mechanical M rangefinder camera. 

Eh anyway. My M is the last body I’ll buy. So I really don’t care. It’s just sad to see. 

Well, if they can further miniaturize IBIS so it fits in the M along with the mech shutter, then it should be a seamless addition. Look at what Fujfilm did with IBIS between generations from the GFX 100 to the GFX 100S. That's a huge sensor to stabilize, but Fujifilm (and now Hasselblad) have fit it into a very small body relative to the sensor size.

[Chimichurri]

38 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Well, if they can further miniaturize IBIS so it fits in the M along with the mech shutter, then it should be a seamless addition. Look at what Fujfilm did with IBIS between generations from the GFX 100 to the GFX 100S. That's a huge sensor to stabilize, but Fujifilm (and now Hasselblad) have fit it into a very small body relative to the sensor size.

It would have to be really super tiny. I’ve never had a need for it so it really doesn’t matter to me. Mostly I hear people who want to hand hold long lenses at very slow speeds. They say look. I can hand hold a 90mm at 1/10 and it’s crispy. Never had to do this myself. 

if anything I keep the iso high and the shutter speed high so I can freeze action sharply. Motion blur for slow speeds great. Never needed ibis for this. just hold the camera steady. 1/30th gives me motion blur 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Chimichurri

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Chimichurri said:

It would have to be really super tiny. I’ve never had a need for it so it really doesn’t matter to me. Mostly I hear people who want to hand hold long lenses at very slow speeds. They say look. I can hand hold a 90mm at 1/10 and it’s crispy. Never had to do this myself. 

if anything I keep the iso high and the shutter speed high so I can freeze action sharply. Motion blur for slow speeds great. Never needed ibis for this. just hold the camera steady. 1/30th gives me motion blur 

For street-style shooting that works well. But since it’s 60mp, some of us are wanting to use the M11 as a compact, lightweight landscape kit without being tied down to a tripod. IBIS would keep me at base ISO in almost any light, even stopped down.

For the record, I would have rather have had the SL2-S’s 24mp sensor in the M11 anyway.

Edited November 17, 2022 by hdmesa

[Chimichurri]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

For street-style shooting that works well. But since it’s 60mp, some of us are wanting to use the M11 as a compact, lightweight landscape kit without being tied down to a tripod. IBIS would keep me at base ISO in almost any light, even stopped down.

For the record, I would have rather have had the SL2-S’s 24mp sensor in the M11 anyway.

Not sure why you’d want to be at base ISO. Even at ISO6400 on my M10R is barely noticeable after edits. But yea. This is what I hear. I don’t know that the Leica M would be my go-to landscape camera. 

[Chimichurri]

I think this says it best.
 

https://m.dpreview.com/opinion/2213667251/leica-s-m11-risks-rendering-the-rangefinder-obsolete

It lists all the reasons why I think the M11 is the beginning of the end for the rangefinder. We can see it here. People now can’t wait for more and more features. To upgrade to the better thing. More megapixels. More details. Faster lenses. Etc etc. 

now people need an EVF more than ever before. And ibis more than ever before. 

I love the M and it’s the reason I really don’t like the M11. If they keep going this way the M will be unrecognizable in a couple of generations. They can dress it up like an M but it won’t be. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Chimichurri

[lct]

This is just theory with respect. People like me have had M cameras for 30+ years and can still use the M11 like a film M if they wish so. Main difference is the EVF that is more handy and powerful than optical Visoflexes have ever been since the fifties. What you seem to forget, but you are not alone, is that M cameras belong to a system allowing non only to shoot in RF mode but also in Visoflex mode for macro, telephoto etc. Your M10 allows this already but its EVF is sluggish to say the least. My M240 is even worse in this respect. With the M11 i can still shoot in RF mode like i did in my youth and shoot macro and telephoto the same way as i do with my digital CL. I can even do both eventually. Composition with the RF and focusing with the EVF for instance or the opposite if i wish so. I shoot macro more and more as i grow older and i discovered that i still like using the macro adapter with googles rather than the otherwise excellent adaper sans goggles. The uniqueness (is that english?) of digital Ms in general and the best of them (sorry) in particular is not that they become mirrorless cameras but that they are both the best rangefinders and more and more decent mirrorless cameras.

Edited November 17, 2022 by lct

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, Chimichurri said:

Not sure why you’d want to be at base ISO. Even at ISO6400 on my M10R is barely noticeable after edits. But yea. This is what I hear. I don’t know that the Leica M would be my go-to landscape camera. 

Wait, you’re wondering why someone would rather shoot M11 landscape at base ISO over ISO 6400? Are you just trolling me now? 

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[SrMi]

6 hours ago, Chimichurri said:

Not sure why you’d want to be at base ISO. Even at ISO6400 on my M10R is barely noticeable after edits. But yea. This is what I hear. I don’t know that the Leica M would be my go-to landscape camera. 

The IQ at base ISO is the best that the camera can produce. While you may hide some deficiencies through extensive edits, it is always good to start with the best possible DNG. 
The more common question is, why shoot at higher ISOs when base ISO is appropriate?