Why I will not be getting a M11...

[Stevejack]

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42 minutes ago, david strachan said:

I really think many would love a state-of-the-art M Leica.

However, many just cannot afford such luxury when our present M's are doing a good job.  If i was to buy the camera, extra battery, and Viso...well it'd be $15,000 Australian. Frankly too much of a stretch. Particularly for some of us self-funded-retirees.

So I'm not sure it's about 17 pages of drivel or looking for faults.

Perhaps a hope and a prayer will answer many who love the M digitals.

All best to those who can. I'll expect exemplary pictures ..  

Leica had a tough time with the M11. It simply didn't fulfil the enough of the feature wish-lists for a lot of photographers, and the most difficult thing for Leica was that those wish lists were hardly harmonious. 

I think Leica has probably priced themselves into a situation where most people would argue that they had better damn well deliver on perfection for the price they're charing. As you say, you're looking at AUD$15k for a camera with the most basic of add-on accessories, and that's before you add a lens. And with most of us here only looking at changeover cost, it's still not worth the price to a lot of people. Everyones idea of perfection in an M is different so Leica can never really hit a slam dunk. 

I do tend to think some people are far too critical of the technical elements of the M11, it's a fine camera and it won't negatively affect anyones image taking ability. In that sense it certainly isn't any worse than an M10 or M10R. It may not be worth the upgrade to a lot of people, and that's absolutely justifiable, but that's a different argument than 'a rangefinder can't take advantage of 60mp' or 'if you don't have an APO lens you'll never see the difference anyway'. I think those types of posts muddy the waters for first time M buyers reading the forums.  

 

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[charlesphoto99]

10 hours ago, neekon said:

 

 

 The concern has real consequences for working pros who might use their M as a backup or secondary camera on a shoot.    

I'm a pro who's used their M's as the PRIMARY and secondary and only camera on shoots and travels for years. Never once misplaced the baseplate or worried about it slowing me down. Not in the film days either with M6 and 7. You're overthinking it.  A bit impossible these days to hold the baseplate or a rear lens caps between the lips with a mask on, but that's an entirely different problem altogether. 

[otto.f]

I. I’m not interested in 60Mp

II. The menu is about as complicated as the SL and I hate that, too many options, especially with the filesizes. The M was keep it simple, wasn‘t it?
III. Not at all interested in ISO’s that go towards 100.000, it’s a fetish in the market these days. Especially while the noise of this camera becomes only nice  at higher ISO’s. I was just so happy with the beautiful noise of the M10R at max 3200. 
IV. I have a certain aversion against an electronic shutter on an M. The whole joy and craft of a silent mechanical shutter is gone with the wind, we are losing a defining trait of M photography here. Not in the result part, but in the joy of working with it  

V. I do not trust the exposure metering from the sensor, it leads to delay of catching the right moment. And I still have to see whether people start complaining about it here, or not. 
VI. The weight is a real bonus, but indeed, as somebody said somewhere, it’s a real question whether that’s a plus with heavier Summiluxes - and 60Mp…

Edited January 20, 2022 by otto.f

[CptSlevin]

While everyone debates on high mp count, lack of IBIS, live view delay and stuff can I point out that there is something strange regarding tonality, color, image depth and sense of perspective?

I looked almost through all sample galleries available and it made no sense to me, but the images look worse than M10 / M10R

[hillavoider]

10 minutes ago, CptSlevin said:

While everyone debates on high mp count, lack of IBIS, live view delay and stuff can I point out that there is something strange regarding tonality, color, image depth and sense of perspective?

I looked almost through all sample galleries available and it made no sense to me, but the images look worse than M10 / M10R

Same happened with the M10M, the first month of images I saw were flat brown and soft. Then everyone worked out the post processing and they are now really impressive 

[shirubadanieru]

1 hour ago, otto.f said:

I. I’m not interested in 60Mp

II. The menu is about as complicated as the SL and I hate that, too many options, especially with the filesizes. The M was keep it simple, wasn‘t it?
III. Not at all interested in ISO’s that go towards 100.000, it’s a fetish in the market these days. Especially while the noise of this camera becomes only nice  at higher ISO’s. I was just so happy with the beautiful noise of the M10R at max 3200. 
IV. I have a certain aversion against an electronic shutter on an M. The whole joy and craft of a silent mechanical shutter is gone with the wind, we are losing a defining trait of M photography here. Not in the result part, but in the joy of working with it  

V. I do not trust the exposure metering from the sensor, it leads to delay of catching the right moment. And I still have to see whether people start complaining about it here, or not. 
VI. The weight is a real bonus, but indeed, as somebody said somewhere, it’s a real question whether that’s a plus with heavier Summiluxes - and 60Mp…

Just providing counter arguments from my POV while completely respecting and understanding your reasoning: 

I. Fair enough, use M- or S-DNGs. At first I was also like WOW no way I will buy the 60MP camera…even when the M10-R or M10M came out, I was like…no just give me 24MP, I’m fine..why…but Leica here did the best possible approach to please everyone, with 3 MP sizes. I will probably be shooting 18MP, same as my M9P and enough for everything I do.

II. Set it once and forget, never need to look at it again especially with the 3 fn keys available now. Not an issue for me.

III. True. I also am happy with the ISO of the M9 and hardly use the Auto ISO. That being said when I tried the M10M it was like having an ISO-less camera, and that kinda blew me away. Not a must have, but it won’t hurt to have I’m sure. Shouldn’t be a negative that the camera can do really well with High ISO (as long as low ISOs are good and don’t suffer).

IV. Agreed, but the sound literally I shot it next to the M10R and sounded the same to me..it’s really nitpicking here. It still feels and sounds like any mechanical shutter (even if it operates differently from previous Ms).

V. Can’t say anything here because I haven’t tested it, but I was also happy with the old metering since I come from film Leicas and M9, never had an issue with it.

VI. The weight to me is awesome, having a digital M that weights the same as the M6 will be great to carry it around longer; that with my cron 35 V2 or pre-asph lux 35 will be awesome, weighting at around 700g. The Leica M10 without lenses weighted 610g? So this is going to be a huge difference for me and a very welcome change.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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4 hours ago, otto.f said:

I. I’m not interested in 60Mp

II. The menu is about as complicated as the SL and I hate that, too many options, especially with the filesizes. The M was keep it simple, wasn‘t it?
III. Not at all interested in ISO’s that go towards 100.000, it’s a fetish in the market these days. Especially while the noise of this camera becomes only nice  at higher ISO’s. I was just so happy with the beautiful noise of the M10R at max 3200. 
IV. I have a certain aversion against an electronic shutter on an M. The whole joy and craft of a silent mechanical shutter is gone with the wind, we are losing a defining trait of M photography here. Not in the result part, but in the joy of working with it  

V. I do not trust the exposure metering from the sensor, it leads to delay of catching the right moment. And I still have to see whether people start complaining about it here, or not. 
VI. The weight is a real bonus, but indeed, as somebody said somewhere, it’s a real question whether that’s a plus with heavier Summiluxes - and 60Mp…

i. Then use one of the lower resolutions. They're there for shooters like you.

ii. I agree. The quick menu is an improvement though so menu diving is rare.

iii. You can set a max auto ISO and ignore anything above your personal ceiling. That's what I do.

iv. The normal shutter is still there at about the same volume as the M10-P. Just a slightly (very slightly) longer sound. It's not offensive. Reports it's louder are false.

v. There is no difference between the shutter delay of the M10 and M11 that's perceptable.

vi. Personal choice. I'm fine with it. But an M10R isn't too heavy for me either.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

While everyone debates on high mp count, lack of IBIS, live view delay and stuff can I point out that there is something strange regarding tonality, color, image depth and sense of perspective?

I looked almost through all sample galleries available and it made no sense to me, but the images look worse than M10 / M10R

Cameras never make images better or worse. A good image is a result of skill technique or luck, not the camera. The M11 takes photos no better or worse than the M10 or M3. Technically I'm seeing some small improvements with some lenses but not all due to the new sensor and the stuff glued to it.

Gordon

[otto.f]

3 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

While everyone debates on high mp count, lack of IBIS, live view delay and stuff can I point out that there is something strange regarding tonality, color, image depth and sense of perspective?

I looked almost through all sample galleries available and it made no sense to me, but the images look worse than M10 / M10R

Tend to agree with this. I’m not very sure about this yet, but what I miss indeed is a clear distinction between focused and OOF areas. You won’t see that in Sean Reid’s tests because he seldom shoots wide open. 

[otto.f]

3 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

weight to me is awesome

I do find it surprising and to be respected that Leica succeeded in bringing the weight down so much and even below M6 and M4, even with this big battery

[Kwesi]

3 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Tend to agree with this. I’m not very sure about this yet, but what I miss indeed is a clear distinction between focused and OOF areas. You won’t see that in Sean Reid’s tests because he seldom shoots wide open. 

You can decide this for yourself by going to your localLeica shop with your camera and lens set to jpeg standard. take a shot or two with your camera then put your lens and card on the m11 also set to jpeg standard shoot the same scene. come home and decide for your self

[wizard]

Am 14.1.2022 um 06:27 schrieb neekon:

I actually bought one.  ... however currently I am close to tossing it out my 34th floor window 

Each and every point you criticize was known on the release date of the M11. Why on earth did you buy one in the first place if you already knew you didn't like what you would get?

[snooper]

11 hours ago, Artin said:

The fact is that anyone that can open their wallet already committed to it, all the rest are just pondering.

Waow! That is a bold statement to explain how good an object can be. So you dont own and drive a Ferrari just because you can’t afford it, otherwise you would? And you didn’t read the latest quantum physics book about strings theory just because you could not afford it?  Or maybe the usage you have of any object is what matters, rather than possession…

Features and benefits of the M11 are variable for each individual. Everybody here is happy you’ve found your perfect camera, but some other people might have some questions on how good it would be for their own usage. This is exactly the purpose of a cyber-space such as this one.

Back to the subject: some of the M11 pictures you’ve posted so far are OOF. A legitimate concern would be to know if it’s an RF  issue, a camera shake issue, a lens issue, etc.

Before I buy an M11 (and chances are I will), I will definitely look around and try to see how good the M11 is for my own usage... If needed, I can show you my bank statement showing I can afford an M11, so you know I’m not just pondering, but just trying to make my own idea.

[snooper]

9 minutes ago, Artin said:

I have no Idea which one of the pictures that I posted are out of focus ? Pretty much most are tack sharp. Click on the pictures to see them better.

I did.

Let’s start with this nice pic of your daughter - I imagine. 

Nice, but to me slightly OOF (focus is on her Frozen II hat IMHO).

If this is what is produced by an M11 at its best, it would be a disappointment. Once again, the picture is nice, but if a portrait was the intent, I would hope sharper details around the eyes.

I see issues on the gas station one as well… Etc.

[relms]

On 1/13/2022 at 11:27 PM, neekon said:

I actually bought one.  I regret it.  

after 14hrs of use And this might change as I get used to it.  But my initial reaction is one of regret and frustration 

I think the finish of the black one is appalling. I think the shutter feels/sounds and acts cheap and unrefined.  I think the “Clunk” on start up is equally unrefined.  
It feels the menu is missing a lot that the M10R BP had.  
The SD under the battery is just complete bullshit.  Its like “lets remove the bottom plate to refine the bottom, but also make the SD card even more inaccessible”

I feel as thought the camera and system as a whole took a gigantic step forward with regards to the sensor and overall tech behind it.  However it is a gigantic step back in regards to actually using the camera .  

I need to use it more and see if the faults are worth the images, however currently I am close to tossing it out my 34th floor window 

Send me your address, and I will camp out beneath your 34th floor window.  

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, snooper said:

And you didn’t read the latest quantum physics book about strings theory just because you could not afford it?

Are you suggesting that a Leica M11 is a bit too complicated a camera? 😉😆

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, snooper said:

Back to the subject: some of the M11 pictures you’ve posted so far are OOF.

That counts for Artin's M10R pictures too

[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, wizard said:

Each and every point you criticize was known on the release date of the M11. Why on earth did you buy one in the first place if you already knew you didn't like what you would get?

The FOMO is seriously strong around here. What I don't get is that the M11 isn't going anywhere soon - why not wait and try and test one first instead of immediately ditching an M one knows and loves for something shiny and new? Does the 11 really make previous M's seem that 'broken?' I'm enjoying reading about the M11 and looking forward to the 12, but the only FOMO I have currently is for an M10M. I'm always a gen behind which is okay by me. 

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[snooper]

1 hour ago, Artin said:

yes the focus is on the frozen hat not the eyes

Thank you! As a potential M11 buyer, I had concerns about the softness of her eyes and I could not know you were focusing on the hat. Now knowing this, I’ll look at it differently, and must admit the IQ is all of a sudden much better.

 

Got another question. Not one of your pictures, though.

Are the orange flowers fine in the focused area?

Edited January 20, 2022 by snooper

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, relms said:

Send me your address, and I will camp out beneath your 34th floor window.  

Hey take a number, I've parked my truck under there, with the trunk lined with pillows.

But looks like things have settled down on the 34th floor, nothing flying out of it yet...:)

Edited January 20, 2022 by setuporg