Why I will not be getting a M11...

[gunther35]

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6 hours ago, elmars said:

Some thought from a long time user. I had the M11 since August as a beta-tester.

• Startup/wakeup: I think it is about 1 sec not 2 sec but it is hard to measure. The M10 was about 1 1/2 sec. For years I complained about startup time at Leica and here in the forum without much reaction. Leica hears on us (but not on me alone). If they would have had the impression of a big issue they would have worked on this. But due to their explanation it is not easy to shorten startup. Modern cameras are a computer that has to boot.
• Shutter operation/reactivity: I was kind of horrified after reading (before getting the camera) that the M11 is in LV mode always, because LV mode in the M10 is so slow. But they speeded it up rapidly. To me there is no noticeable difference in speed and reaction though there must be one, because there is more shutter operation. I see no disadvantages in practice. Jono Slack and Sean Reid made some tests. The latter came to the result that the M11 is 0,017 sec slower in reaction.
• Shutter sound: The loudness of the shutter is the same. There are enough films to prove this. The sound is a bit different due to the more complex shutter operation. Some folks love this, some hate it. Its a matter of taste, everyone has to decide for itself.
• Shutter clunk at startup: The shutter opens after starting the camera. This makes a clunk. This is disturbing but it is not chinese water torture. One can get used to it like me. And I am an old man. To avoid this, Leica would have to construct a totally new shutter. I know that this is expensive (the M9 used the one out of the R-series). Even for Leica and with the Leica prices not all is possible. 
• Multifield metering: As I said I am an old man with many years or metering experience. Younger people have not, often they don´t know why there is wrong exposure with classic metering. Multifield metering is way better. Who wants to use classic metering has the option - of course with the sensor as metering cell. To omit metering on the shutter curtain saves space for the metering cell, allows the use of some more old lenses and saves production costs. The results of multifield metering are good. Some find them a little overexposed, but this is a matter of taste. And there is sometimes heavy overexposure short after startup (only one photo). This is a bug that will be fixed. 

To sum it up: I had the same skepticism like some of us here but I got used to the changes. They are not a big deal to me anymore in regard of the big advantages of the M11 over the former M. But I encourage everyone to write directly to Leica and beg for a shorter startup time and a new shutter. They listen. 

Many thanks to Elmars and Jono for your excellent reviews and beautiful pictures!

I applaud Leica for their many innovations incorporated into the M11! 

For my style of photography though, my main priority for upgrading is quickness/responsiveness of the camera, i.e. hoping for a significant improvement with startup/wakeup/lag time.

What is your experirnce with the M11 using only the electronic shutter in terms of its responseness? Can you add an artificial sound to give feedback when picture is taken?

 

 

 

[CGarrard]

47 minutes ago, M9reno said:

Sorry - I must have misunderstood your use of the term shutter “wear”…

No worries. Additional wear is inevitable, total longevity, ... no idea :). 

[augustwest100]

On 1/14/2022 at 1:35 AM, Crem said:

@Stevejackthanks for the info. I think I get what you are saying. I would describe the shutter on my M10R as delightful. It's quiet and refined. This is somewhat opposite of my Sonys. The Sonys sound more robotic, louder, and definitely are more distracting. I never used the original M10, but I'm guessing it's somewhere in-between the M10R and a typical Sony. Hopefully they can bring the best of both shutters in the M11P.

I have used the Sony A7 series, the Sony A9 series, the Leica  M9, M240, M10, and Leica M10M. As far as the “Shutter Wars” go, Leica wins this category easily. IMO, every version of M has a better shutter sound, with the M10M (same as M10R) having the nicest shutter sound short of an M film body (a true “click”). Leica had Sony beat on shutter sound with the M240. The Sony shutter sounds more like a metal clack. The regular M10 is in between the two but waaaaay closer to the M10R than to a Sony. There are things Sony does better than Leica, but shutter sound ain’t one of them!

I would assume the silent shutter of the Sony and the Leica sound exactly the same though  Cue the Simon and Garfunkel song right about now…

[elmars]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb gunther35:

Can you add an artificial sound to give feedback when picture is taken?

This is not possible though we betatesters asked for that. perhaps later. I cannot say anything about the reactivity of the electronic shutter, sorry.

[CGarrard]

13 hours ago, SrMi said:

I still have all my M digital cameras (M8, M9, M10M, M10-R). Will never forgive myself that I traded-in my M240 when getting a new digital M :(.

There's always time to get another. :). I wish I had kept my Typ 262, maybe get that one again. However, with an M9-P and M-P Typ 240 and M8,  those three make me miss the Typ 262 much less. Especially since when I'm using my M-P Typ 240 in Classic/LV Disabled metering mode it acts almost exactly the same. There's only a slightly noisier shutter cycle. 

I do however miss my M-D Typ 262. I'll probably pick that one up again. Keeping my eye on the M10-R however

[84bravo]

19 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I recognize you are not. Others... well.

As long as we're bitchin, lets change the subject I will now tell you all the definitive reason why you should not buy an M11.  Mine just arrived and frankly, I'm utterly disappointed. Especially with all the reviewers, even the nicest guy on the face of the earth, Jono for not stating this very first thing in their reviews. 

They changed the box! No more chest of drawers. It's just a camera in a box!!! At first I thought they sent me a Fuji by mistake. What the hell!!!  It's not Christmas in January if opening the box isn't the best part. Outrageous. End of an era. Total disappointment. Depression. Despair. Startup times... Phooey!  Where the hell is that beautiful one of a kind box?!? 😂

Ok, ok, breath, breath. Slowly in, out.  Sigh... I'll learn to live with it.

I noticed that too from the photos and videos I've seen. I use my cameras professionally so boxes are not really a big deal to me. However, it did seem disappointing when I saw the Tamarkin unboxing video.

 

19 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tailwagger]

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Just now, 84bravo said:

I noticed that too from the photos and videos I've seen. I use my cameras professionally so boxes are not really a big deal to me. However, it did seem disappointing when I saw the Tamarkin unboxing video.

I jest of course. It's no big deal in the grand scheme of things, but OTOH it does feel like a more subtle indicator that Leica is moving on from certain traditions w.r.t. the M. 

[84bravo]

Why won't I be getting an M11?

I can't afford it!

I've used every M model digital camera and each on improved on the previous. I use and M10-R now, but I still like and use the M8 especially for BW. I recall when the M8 was first introduced it was about two generations behind other digital cameras, had real problems without IR filters, and was extremely expensive for what it was. People howled about how disappointing that camera was and that it had a crop sensor. I purchased one much later at a very reasonable price and it's a fine camera. I can see myself getting an M11 eventually. Probably when the P model comes out.

[Fedro]

19 hours ago, neekon said:

The  box is the best part. 
Leica finally moved to reasonably sized boxes.   


 

entirely agree ... especially when you are not allowed to throw them away otherwise resale value drops ..

They take up so much space (the 50 APO for example) and just chuck them somewhere

I love the smaller boxes

[M11 for me]

Am 14.1.2022 um 04:25 schrieb bernstein1234:

Hear me out guys, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of you out there with the same thoughts.

1. More megapixels?

This means having to shoot at much higher shutter speeds even on motionless objects (think 1/100, 1/200). Previously I could get away with 1/30 for statics on a M10-P, 50mm focal length. Of course one can argue to mount the fastest, fattest and baddest Summiluxes, but that would defeat the purpose of having the reduced weight on the black aluminium M11.

Not having seen real samples (yet), but I would think that 40mp would suffice. Of course, people used to say '24 is the sweet spot', but then I started to notice the lag on my MBP with the 40mp M10-R.

2. Bigger battery?

I could carry 2 spares for M10-P on my trips, the weights hardly noticeable.

3. Better sensor?

I'm not sure about M11, but according to Jono, the base ISO of M10-R yield the same or even slightly better dynamic range than the ISO 64. Anyhow, I am pretty satisfied with the dynamic range on M10-R. Also, if I want to get the Leica look easily, I can always turn to my M9-P.

4. Lighter weight?

I suspect that to complement the lightweight package, the lenses would have to also be smaller (think Summicrons, Summarits). But as mentioned in Point 1, having 'slower' lenses would mean the need for higher shutter speeds due to the increase megapixels previously only seen in Medium format territory, where steady hands or tripods/monopods are necessary. For me, I found that M9 is light enough, coupled with Summicrons, the total weight is around 590g + 255g = 845g for M9, as compared to 532g + 320g = 862g for M11.

5. Probably better high ISO?

If assuming from Point 1 is true about having to shoot at higher shutter speeds than previous models, then it will also mean having to bump up ISO when light conditions are not optimal.

 

My take

I would stick to combination of M10-R (Black Chrome version) and M9-P for now. The only purchase I would make is probably the Visoflex 2. On the whole, I think I'll wait out for M12 or until the next model with IBIS, due to the ever increasing arms race for more megapixels. Are they necessary, really?

 

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Sorry I did NOT read this thread. Just the first post. I think that all the arguments here are untrue from A To Z. Pls read the facts or inform yourself before opening such a thread. Its difficult as well to understand why you got such a lot of likes. Its important to get well informed about the new technology. This forum is the best source of information. So pls read before you write.

Edited January 15, 2022 by M10 for me

[jrichie]

Hi All

I have been a member here for a long time here but rarely post [I will be more].

Yesterday I went to the Leica store and tested the M11 with visoflex.  I agree with some comments on here that it feels like a camera in development and isn’t sure what it is anymore.  Like a hybrid of the SL2 [which I have] and an M.

I think they need to go back to basics on the M and an have a new separate fully digital EVF version.  Right now it is just confused about what it wants to be and as others have said, unfinished.

The visoflex experience wasn’t close to the SL2, and overall as a ‘digital’ the SL2 is a much better camera to use.

I actually have the funds to buy this camera now, for the first time in a long time, and wont be.  I am going to enjoy the SL2 and await a fully digital M mount camera for my M lenses.  The M11 is a stepping stone to this, but just felt a little weird [like a 2022 camera from the 1950’s].

[Knipsknecht]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb jrichie:

[…] I actually have the funds to buy this camera now, for the first time in a long time, and wont be.  I am going to enjoy the SL2 and await a fully digital M mount camera for my M lenses.  The M11 is a stepping stone to this, but just felt a little weird [like a 2022 camera from the 1950’s].

Same here! Of course, the M11 is technically a better camera than the M10. But it might be some kind of a transitional model. Maybe, just maybe, the M12 will be the real “next step”.

[M11 for me]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Knipsknecht:

Same here! Of course, the M11 is technically a better camera than the M10. But it might be some kind of a transitional model. Maybe, just maybe, the M12 will be the real “next step”.

I wonder if it is not rather the M27.

In other words: Since the beginning of the M models each model was transitional and this will never change until the M series is discontinued.

Edited January 15, 2022 by M10 for me

[Knipsknecht]

@M10 for meI meant getting rid of the rangefinder. That’s not just transitional,

[fabior]

I will not buy the 11 because after selling my M10D on December 24th I bought one of the latest black paint M10Rs on January 11th ... two days before the launch of the M11 ... My new 10 R BP is extremely beautiful. I am absolutely satisfied with the quality of the images it produces, for the settings menu, for the shutter sound. The new features and benefits of the 11 don't make it particularly desirable to me. I can live with fewer pixels, shorter battery life, usb C etc... but this M10R is  certainly the latest example and pinnacle  of the Leica M tradition. And if I want a lot of pixels and a different photographic approach I can always use my SL2.  the only thing I'm missing is the M10D's charging lever !

[jrichie]

8 minutes ago, Knipsknecht said:

@M10 for meI meant getting rid of the rangefinder. That’s not just transitional,

Exactly.

there should be 2 models of M.  Manual Rangefinder for the purist that costs a fortune, and a digital EVF for those who dont want to live in the past but enjoy the M lenses and manual focus [and get more M’s into more hands as the price should be more like the SL2].

The M11 is an improved frankenstein iteration of previous models, and is just getting weird now, in my eyes.

[M11 for me]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Knipsknecht:

@M10 for meI meant getting rid of the rangefinder. That’s not just transitional,

That step has been done: SL its called. 

I just come back from a few days in the mountains in the snow: Here you will appreciate the Rangefinder (M like Messsucher). An EVF is no comparison in snow and bright sunshine with dark shadows. I would not like anything else than an M. Then I believe that an M without the rangefinder would compete against all the giants on the market. That might be the end of Leica.

[M11 for me]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb jrichie:

Exactly.

there should be 2 models of M.  Manual Rangefinder for the purist that costs a fortune, and a digital EVF for those who dont want to live in the past but enjoy the M lenses and manual focus [and get more M’s into more hands as the price should be more like the SL2].

The M11 is an improved frankenstein iteration of previous models, and is just getting weird now, in my eyes.

There are many users here not minding living in the past 🤪

Edited January 15, 2022 by M10 for me

[Knipsknecht]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb M10 for me:

That step has been done: SL its called. 

I just come back from a few days in the mountains in the snow: Here you will appreciate the Rangefinder (M like Messsucher). An EVF is no comparison in snow and bright sunshine with dark shadows. I would not like anything else than an M. Then I believe that an M without the rangefinder would compete against all the giants on the market. That might be the end of Leica.

Sorry, but no! The SL is a completely different camera that shares just the red dot with the M. And the SL (as well as the Q, the Q2 and the digital CL) is already competing against all other manufacturers. And it is not the end of Leica.

Right now the M is kind of a Frankenstein camera. One third rooted in the 1950’s, two thirds jumping on the digital train. And with the latest iteration it becomes much more obvious than with the M10 that Leica is following the latest trends on the market.

The funny thing is, a few months back I have argued the same way as you. But since I’ve seen the M11 and its specs I am pretty sure that sooner or later the rangefinder will fade away. Maybe Leica will split up the product line as @jrichiesuggests in his post above.

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[SrMi]

24 minutes ago, jrichie said:

Exactly.

there should be 2 models of M.  Manual Rangefinder for the purist that costs a fortune, and a digital EVF for those who dont want to live in the past but enjoy the M lenses and manual focus [and get more M’s into more hands as the price should be more like the SL2].

The M11 is an improved frankenstein iteration of previous models, and is just getting weird now, in my eyes.

The rangefinder is the future :)!
When, for whatever reason, I shoot with the Visoflex, most of the time, I focus using the rangefinder. 

An EVF only M would be quite annoying, IMO.