Why I will not be getting a M11...

[setuporg]

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10 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Ok, ok, breath, breath. Slowly in, out.  Sigh... I'll learn to live with it.

As Taylor Swift sings,

Oh yeah, all right 
Take it easy baby 
Make it last all night 
She was an American girl 

[Jeff S]

But you get a red dot seal on the cardboard outer box (until, I guess, the ‘P’ version box appears)…

Jeff

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[neekon]

34 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

I recognize you are not. Others... well.

As long as we're bitchin, lets change the subject I will now tell you all the definitive reason why you should not buy an M11.  Mine just arrived and frankly, I'm utterly disappointed. Especially with all the reviewers, even the nicest guy on the face of the earth, Jono for not stating this very first thing in their reviews. 

They changed the box! No more chest of drawers. It's just a camera in a box!!! At first I thought they sent me a Fuji by mistake. What the hell!!!  It's not Christmas in January if opening the box isn't the best part. Outrageous. End of an era. Total disappointment. Depression. Despair. Startup times... Phooey!  Where the hell is that beautiful one of a kind box?!? 😂

Ok, ok, breath, breath. Slowly in, out.  Sigh... I'll learn to live with it.

 

 

 

 

 

The  box is the best part. 
Leica finally moved to reasonably sized boxes.   


 

[shirubadanieru]

2 hours ago, Datsch said:

I almost bought one yesterday. Then I thought to myself, what would the actual shooting experience be like? That made up my mind ... 😆

 

Taking a picture using the M-D: Aperture. Shutter speed. Focus. Click.

Taking a picture using the M11: Aperture. Shutter speed. Oh, wait, the sun's come out, I'm wide open and need a faster shutter, but I'm already on 4000th OK, go to bulb  mode, take camera away from eye, click umm, no, finger to slide up to 8000th, ok, now try again. Hmmmmm lots of green in this shot will the AWB be OK? Gosh, let's try the  new gray card option, camera down from eye again, which menu was it again, OK got it, click, no you can use touch, move the cross to the sky hey it's England the whole sky  is grey right but not today it's actually blue oh well try the inside of my camera case, that's 18% gray. Right got it set, camera up to eye again. Hmmmm is this really a   great shot, deserving of the whole 60MP? Dunno, I'm a bit low on disk space back home, let's try 36MP, camera off eye menu menu click click all sorted gosh that was fast  this is soooo Wesentliche right? Hmmmm I'd like to be a bit closer but there's a fence in the way, how about cropping? Yeah great, use the 75mm framelines instead of the  50mm. That's ummm 50 times 1.3 that's 15 carry the 1 errr that's only 65mm rats so what's 1.8? a bit less than 100 I guess, call it 90 drat that's too long. We'll go with 1.3. I set it on the thumbwheel function button press snazzy, eh? Ooops pressed it too long, now it's giving me options for reprogramming it ummm well let's try to do it in  the menu instead, menu menu page page page scoll scroll arrow arrow ok got it. Hmmmm aren't I cropping the 36MP even lower now? Drat, change it back, oh yeah I forgot  that's on the top button function button, ok cool changed back, great. Now ready to frame up again, raise camera to my eye, oh, the sun has changed, there's more light  round the edges of the frame through the trees ... am I on matrix metering? Best check, nope, still on centre weighted from a few shots ago, let's flip it back to matrix.   There, move speed up one stop. Phew all ready to go! Click. Hmmmm nothing's happening. Turn the camera around in my hand. What's that blinking red light in the viewfinder   window [takes blurry picture of own face] ahh! Self timer from when I used the tripod by that last stream! Back into the menus again, 2s no, 12s, no 0s right that's off  phew lets go! Click. Aaaaaargh! Forgot to focus after all that. OK try again. Focus. Click. Gosh, I'm so looking forward to seeing this shot in all it's massive megapixel   glory back home on my 1920x1200 screen ...

 

Or you can also ignore all those options in the M11 and just set aperture, shutter speed, focus and click lol

[hdmesa]

5 minutes ago, neekon said:

The  box is the best part. 
Leica finally moved to reasonably sized boxes.   

The old boxes are a little shop of paper-shard horrors. The company that cut those shapes out from the flat piece of cardboard did a poor job of clearing off the excess paper turds. Felt more like opening a snow globe or a piñata than a camera box.

Edited January 15, 2022 by hdmesa

[shirubadanieru]

5 minutes ago, neekon said:

The  box is the best part. 
Leica finally moved to reasonably sized boxes.   


 

Leica is like, hey guys we’re moving to smaller boxes and to more eco-friendly finishes to do our part in saving the planet. 

Leica users: WHERE IS MY BLACK PAINT! WHERE IS MY HUGE BOX! F**K ECO FRIENDLY, HATE LEICA! 

Ahaha anyway this M11 release has been the most fun I’ve had in this forum ahah

[aristotle]

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3 hours ago, setuporg said:

Looks like all shutter issues can be fixed in firmware.  Options will include

* EFCS

* Leave open on shutdown

* Close at will

* Lament the demise of the previous shutter (Chopin’s funeral march playing)

Reply not specifically directed to you setup, but based on all of the turn-on lag discussion....  OK, I get that folks don't like the ~2 second lag.  I might not care,  but I get that folks do.  I think that the armchair designers here are off the mark with regards to what they are attributing it to though.  It is extremely unlikely that it has anything to do with the shutter opening on startup.  It's much more likely going through some lengthy startup routine, the last step of which happens to be to open the shutter.  If it's 1/4000 of a second (or half of that actually) or 1/30 of a second (or half of that actually), it's not contributing to the turn-on lag.  That may not make people any happier with the end result...but wringing hands over the fact that the shutter is, or is not left open when you turn the thing off probably isn't the best use of gray matter.

With regards to metering, I always expose manually, and my brain is calibrated to the old system (which seems to be awfully darn consistent from my M6 to my M10R) and is great by me.  So long as they offer a center weighted option that gives results consistent with the old system, I wouldn't even know if the meter happens to use a reflection off of a shutter curtain into an electronic sensor, or if it uses direct light into an electronic sensor. I leave the AI based multi-mode super duper automatic exposure control to my Nikon.  But sounds like those who use their Ms to capture kids running around and what not would find more consistent results with automatic exposure on the M11 in comparison with the M10.  

Finally, for the shooting experience, I'd have to try it.  It's hard to imagine that the actual shutter closing time would be noticeable, but there may be some time over which the sensor has to be dark before opening the shutter again, which may or may not be noticeable.

[Jk1002]

So in the LA Leica Store stream event the shutter came up in the chat. They refered to a  Tech Talk next Thursday

 

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/leica-tech-talk-ep7-a-legend-reinvented-discover-the-leica-m11-registration-246634188497?aff=eemailordconf&utm_campaign=order_confirm&utm_medium=email&ref=eemailordconf&utm_source=eventbrite&utm_term=viewevent

[CGarrard]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

On the other hand, no other digital M has an instantaneous start-up, AFAIK. I would rather M11 had an almost instantaneous wake-up from standby. Many mirrorless cameras have that.

SrMi, I'm sorry but you are downplaying this issue. Almost every digital M has basically instant start up, I can speak for them all except the M10 series which I've only used for a test trial, but noticed a bit of lag. You should really stop trying to muddy the waters here.

The facts are this, there is no classical metering on the M11. This causes the sensor to be used for metering and the result of the design is that the shutter moves much more and there is lag as the CPU gathers data from the sensor and loads the menu system etc. I provided you a link showing the start up lag of about 2 full seconds. The constant extra wear on the shutter is also something to consider, and the battery is always being used more because of the constant sensor readout. 

While the M11 has many major advances its also removed two of the traditional parts of the M that have made M's what they are. The floorplate and the metering off the shutter curtain.

If you are so keen on getting numbers, then test one yourself and provide all the scientific data that you, as a scientist, should be able to provide. 

Meanwhile in the real world if photographers dont like how the shutter and startup operate on the M11, its going to be foreshadowed by these issues. Period.

[dkmoore]

4 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I recognize you are not. Others... well.

As long as we're bitchin, lets change the subject I will now tell you all the definitive reason why you should not buy an M11.  Mine just arrived and frankly, I'm utterly disappointed. Especially with all the reviewers, even the nicest guy on the face of the earth, Jono for not stating this very first thing in their reviews. 

They changed the box! No more chest of drawers. It's just a camera in a box!!! At first I thought they sent me a Fuji by mistake. What the hell!!!  It's not Christmas in January if opening the box isn't the best part. Outrageous. End of an era. Total disappointment. Depression. Despair. Startup times... Phooey!  Where the hell is that beautiful one of a kind box?!? 😂

Ok, ok, breath, breath. Slowly in, out.  Sigh... I'll learn to live with it.

 

 

 

 

 

Best M post of 22. 

[dkmoore]

3 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Leica is like, hey guys we’re moving to smaller boxes and to more eco-friendly finishes to do our part in saving the planet. 

Leica users: WHERE IS MY BLACK PAINT! WHERE IS MY HUGE BOX! F**K ECO FRIENDLY, HATE LEICA! 

Ahaha anyway this M11 release has been the most fun I’ve had in this forum ahah

This is a fact. Give me my mother fu$&ing drawers. 
 

😎😂😎😂

Edited January 15, 2022 by dkmoore

[dkmoore]

36 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

SrMi, I'm sorry but you are downplaying this issue. Almost every digital M has basically instant start up, I can speak for them all except the M10 series which I've only used for a test trial, but noticed a bit of lag. You should really stop trying to muddy the waters here.

The facts are this, there is no classical metering on the M11. This causes the sensor to be used for metering and the result of the design is that the shutter moves much more and there is lag as the CPU gathers data from the sensor and loads the menu system etc. I provided you a link showing the start up lag of about 2 full seconds. The constant extra wear on the shutter is also something to consider, and the battery is always being used more because of the constant sensor readout. 

While the M11 has many major advances its also removed two of the traditional parts of the M that have made M's what they are. The floorplate and the metering off the shutter curtain.

If you are so keen on getting numbers, then test one yourself and provide all the scientific data that you, as a scientist, should be able to provide. 

Meanwhile in the real world if photographers dont like how the shutter and startup operate on the M11, its going to be foreshadowed by these issues. Period.

Huh? I’m not sure you can speak for M fans having never owned a M10. 

[SrMi]

42 minutes ago, CGarrard said:

SrMi, I'm sorry but you are downplaying this issue. Almost every digital M has basically instant start up, I can speak for them all except the M10 series which I've only used for a test trial, but noticed a bit of lag. You should really stop trying to muddy the waters here.

And I was only speaking about M10  and M11 :).

[Gobert]

Why can’t I have a luxury box anymore? It was so handy for my jewelery. 

[CGarrard]

43 minutes ago, dkmoore said:

Huh? I’m not sure you can speak for M fans having never owned a M10. 

Well one, I'm not speaking for anyone so I'm not sure why you are presuming that. Two, who are you to say that the price of admission to speak on behalf of M users that I, or anyone else, must own an M10? 

Man the internet.

[CGarrard]

39 minutes ago, SrMi said:

And I was only speaking about M10  and M11 :).

I'm sorry but this is your quote "On the other hand, no other digital M has an instantaneous start-up, AFAIK. "

That certainly doesn't sound like you are speaking about just the M10 and M11 now does it?

Hence my reply.

[CGarrard]

5 hours ago, BJohn said:

For everybody who thinks that all the reviewers are now the golden standard for an opinion - and I believe this thread here contains a lot of eligible worries, @elmars created a lovely shutter video at 1/4000 - thanks for that. You can easily compare it on your own (not the actual user experience but you can estimate whether this will influence you in a good or a bad way). Just get your M camera and play around with that.

 

I also have to add that one post mentioned that only a few flagship cameras are below some given startup time (sorry, too many postings to review again), I believe 1.5 seconds were quoted. I don't care if that is true. The super expensive M11 camera should have implemented the essence of photography, a landmark of Leica, a pure german engineering thing. Leica ever concentrated on form follows function and bringing the best stuff together. They should deliver a hell of a startup time! And if you are comparing some things or another with an M10 (released in 2017) and the M10P (released in 2018) - that means 4 to 5 years of technical innovations or german awesome engineering power. You shouldn't refer to these devices as, yeah well, it's basically as good as that.

I get that most people seem to just don't care about that. That's okay, but then I dislike the marketing slogans like essence of photography or the decisive moment. It's a stupid RF camera for a reason. And yeah, that's my x-th post about that with tons of emotions in it, and I'm loving that I'm raging a bit about that. That's passion! I don't buy an M camera for doing just normal photos - I don't want anything else to be an extension of myself and to travel the world with me. I am actually using these cameras on a regular basis and these are my only cameras. So yeah, I do care! And I was in full anticipation mode for the release and it broke my heart (multiple times in a row).

Bravo, well said. So well said.

[SrMi]

Just now, CGarrard said:

I'm sorry but this is your quote "On the other hand, no other digital M has an instantaneous start-up, AFAIK. "

That certainly doesn't sound like you are speaking about just the M10 and M11 now does it?

Hence my reply.

I was clearly wrong. All pre M10 cameras seem to have almost instant startup. Thank you for correcting me. I learned something new about my M8 and M9 :). And you are correct that my statement indicated that I spoke about non-M10's as well. That was not my intention.

[CGarrard]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

I was clearly wrong. All pre M10 cameras seem to have almost instant startup. Thank you for correcting me. I learned something new about my M8 and M9 :). And you are correct that my statement indicated that I spoke about non-M10's as well. That was not my intention.

No worries. Just explaining why I replied how I did. Thank you for that. Now back to writing my M-P Typ 240 review

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[SrMi]

1 minute ago, CGarrard said:

No worries. Just explaining why I replied how I did. Thank you for that. Now back to writing my M-P Typ 240 review

I still have all my M digital cameras (M8, M9, M10M, M10-R). Will never forgive myself that I traded-in my M240 when getting a new digital M :(.