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Why I will not be getting a M11...


bernstein1234

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2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Yes, so this should be an easy firmware fix to have the option to leave the shutter open at startup. They should also add an option to the menu where you can open the shutter for cleaning to include an option to close it, too. That way for those that want the shutter to remain open at shutdown, they could still close the shutter manually to change lenses in the field and not have to worry about dust on the sensor.

The R5 shutter is super fast. I think it's simply opening at 1/8000 of a second versus whatever the M11 is set to open at. The R5 power-off closes the shutter very slowly though, sounds like 1/30 sec. I think this is what Leica needs to do – not worry about shutter wear on startup and change the opening speed to 1/4000 sec. and then have the closing speed be as slow as is reasonable.

I would agree with that. A firmware update could solve some of the problems. 

the opening should be 1/4000th. it would make much more sense.

Im still shocked they didnt use the shutter mechanism/setup as the SL2

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1 minute ago, neekon said:

I would agree with that. A firmware update could solve some of the problems. 

the opening should be 1/4000th. it would make much more sense.

Im still shocked they didnt use the shutter mechanism/setup as the SL2

Probably didn't have room for the SL2 shutter. They moved everything around this time to accommodate the new battery placement, so they could have changed the shutter mech – I'm betting they just couldn't for whatever reason.

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12 minutes ago, neekon said:

I had forgotten that the R5 had the shutter open on startup.  It mustve been so fast it never bothered me. 

You are right, there is no reason the shutter opening on startup cant be either sped up, or just left open on shutdown.  

The bottom plate shouldve been removed a couple of generations ago. Maybe the M240.

I like to just pour sand in it occasionally. 

You misunderstood me; in order to have access underneath the top plate you need to be able to take the bottom off the camera. This was previously done by loosening two screws underneath the baseplate. It's rather important as it allows you to adjust the RF if it goes out. 
 

For all intents and purposes, the new redesign most likely requires a trip to Leica for recalibration. 

Edited by Oswalt
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1 minute ago, Oswalt said:

You misunderstood me; in order to have access underneath the top plate you need to be able to take the bottom off the camera. This was previously done by loosening two screws underneath the baseplate. It's rather important as it allows you to adjust the RF if it goes out. 
 

For all intents and purposes, the new redesign most likely requires a trip to Leica for recalibration. 

In the Leica keynote video, the one with them talking at a table over coffee, they mentioned the RF was kept the same, but they did say they made small improvements. I would assume the only complaint about the RF would have been it needed some mechanical strengthening to hold its calibration position. Maybe they also opened up another way to get to the RF mech since the bottom plate was changed. 

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3 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Probably didn't have room for the SL2 shutter. They moved everything around this time to accommodate the new battery placement, so they could have changed the shutter mech – I'm betting they just couldn't for whatever reason.

Thats possible.  Im guessing the reason was Leica being Leica.  

2 minutes ago, Oswalt said:

You misunderstood me; in order to have access underneath the top plate you need to be able to take the bottom off the camera. This was previously done by loosening two screws underneath the baseplate. It's rather important as it allows you to adjust the RF if it goes out. 
 

For all intents and purposes, the new redesign most likely requires a trip to Leica for recalibration. 

ah, i though tit was a dig at the removal of the bottom plate. 

i wouldnt touch the RF adjustment and take it to Leica NJ either way, so not a bit deal 

 

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vor 14 Stunden schrieb shirubadanieru:

Can you elaborate on the finish? From the videos / pictures it just looks like a different shade of black with a slight different touch to it? Also shutter sound is it that different from M10P/R? From other reviews this wasn’t really raised. 

The SD part I’m fine with it, given that 64GB internal memory would eliminate the need for SDs for me.

When I got a test body M11 I didn't even realized that the black finish was different from my M10r. But that's me, maybe other people have different experience.

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Back on topic:

I won't be getting one. I've used M cameras since 1968, skipped several models along the way, and still have all I bought. For digital the M10 does more than I need, and I'm content with that.

The price is also outside the range I'm comfortable with. I could swing it, but see no reason to do so. If the M10 (and backup M9) eventually die I'll still have my film Ms for the "M experience" - and if I need digital images there are fine cameras for a small fraction of the M11 price. Besides, I likely won't outlast my M10 by much...

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I would like to add my feelings about the things discussed here. I have owned a M10r for some time now and tested a M11.

There is a difference in sound, but it is not a big difference and I am sure after 1 week using the M11 I wouldn't even remember there is a difference,

I wish for faster startup time for both cameras, but it is so close that I also would say it is not the criteria to choose one over the other. Use a x1dII and you know what means slow.

I personally found the classic metering not perfect.specially for landscapes with bright sky or high contrast images. I would turn the camera more down for metering to avoid underexposure when there would be too much sky in the metering area. But that always was hit and miss. Worked ok in film times with the highlight behavior of film, but in digital times I did not foind it perfect.

So I checked out the advanced metering with m10r with life view. But it made the camera slow. 

So now we have the advanced metering in "kind of" live view mode, and its about as fast as m10r in classic mode. IMO it is an advantage for shooting, even if the camera feels a bit more "digital" now than the m10r. And yes, I also agree there is some room for firmware optimization to make the metering even better,

Another big advantage I see is that the sensor of the M11 shows less vignetting compared to m10r, for example with the 28/1.4.

Personally I am trying to decide myself if I shall upgrade from m10r to m11. I am tempted but have not yet decided.

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4 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

Maybe invent a metal baseplate or something to hide the hideous thing?🙂

You can always put it in a half-case. The best way to hide ugly M cameras is underwater housing, though. 😅

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3 hours ago, kivis said:

I have two "ancient" Leica M-P 240's that I use for all my professional work, commercial, weddings, etc. The M11 looks great but my rigs are doing just fine. In any case the M Mount Lenses are the real stars, both Leica and Voigtlander brands.

My M lenses look great on a Sony a7r4 with 61 mega pixels, have that "Leica look" for 1/3 the price plus has IBIS and pixel shift ability to make really large (over 250mp) still life/landscapes.  After my M8 and M9 (primary camera for 8 years) I've moved to analog MP. My next digital M lens camera will be an SL2, far better EVF than M11.

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1 hour ago, neekon said:

oh come on, thats a false equivalency and you know it.  
The D850 battery is nearly identical to the M11 in terms of size, both are about 1800Mah.  
There is no reason the M11 with its state of the art processor couldn't be instant

Au contraire.  Let's say the battery is the same size. Is the body? And by the way, the processor is over 2 years old. 

The engine in a M is in a very tight space and has had issues with cooling since the M10s intro.  I'm absolutely sick to death of this stupid notion that if someone, in an utterly different design space accomplished something, then of course any one else can in a completely different context can easily as well.  Sorry thats utter BS and invariably comes from folks who've never been involved in a complex engineering effort. If things were that simple, iPhones would be IMacs. And yeah, Corollas would be Ferraris.

Now, I'm perfectly happy to accept the camera is not perfect and that there are issues folks would like addressed, but designing a device with over 1100 discrete components in a very tight package means there are going to be compromises.  Computing power, clock speeds and heat dissipation among them.  And if you have to turn down the wick to ensure the camera isn't locking up due to thermal issues or frying components, thats what do. Since everyone here thinks all this crap is so simple, just go get in there and figure out how to double overclock the processor. Should make your startup faster. Let me know how well it winds up working. 

Edited by Tailwagger
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I almost bought one yesterday. Then I thought to myself, what would the actual shooting experience be like? That made up my mind ... 😆

 

Taking a picture using the M-D: Aperture. Shutter speed. Focus. Click.


Taking a picture using the M11: Aperture. Shutter speed. Oh, wait, the sun's come out, I'm wide open and need a faster shutter, but I'm already on 4000th OK, go to bulb  mode, take camera away from eye, click umm, no, finger to slide up to 8000th, ok, now try again. Hmmmmm lots of green in this shot will the AWB be OK? Gosh, let's try the  new gray card option, camera down from eye again, which menu was it again, OK got it, click, no you can use touch, move the cross to the sky hey it's England the whole sky  is grey right but not today it's actually blue oh well try the inside of my camera case, that's 18% gray. Right got it set, camera up to eye again. Hmmmm is this really a   great shot, deserving of the whole 60MP? Dunno, I'm a bit low on disk space back home, let's try 36MP, camera off eye menu menu click click all sorted gosh that was fast  this is soooo Wesentliche right? Hmmmm I'd like to be a bit closer but there's a fence in the way, how about cropping? Yeah great, use the 75mm framelines instead of the  50mm. That's ummm 50 times 1.3 that's 15 carry the 1 errr that's only 65mm rats so what's 1.8? a bit less than 100 I guess, call it 90 drat that's too long. We'll go with 1.3. I set it on the thumbwheel function button press snazzy, eh? Ooops pressed it too long, now it's giving me options for reprogramming it ummm well let's try to do it in  the menu instead, menu menu page page page scoll scroll arrow arrow ok got it. Hmmmm aren't I cropping the 36MP even lower now? Drat, change it back, oh yeah I forgot  that's on the top button function button, ok cool changed back, great. Now ready to frame up again, raise camera to my eye, oh, the sun has changed, there's more light  round the edges of the frame through the trees ... am I on matrix metering? Best check, nope, still on centre weighted from a few shots ago, let's flip it back to matrix.   There, move speed up one stop. Phew all ready to go! Click. Hmmmm nothing's happening. Turn the camera around in my hand. What's that blinking red light in the viewfinder   window [takes blurry picture of own face] ahh! Self timer from when I used the tripod by that last stream! Back into the menus again, 2s no, 12s, no 0s right that's off  phew lets go! Click. Aaaaaargh! Forgot to focus after all that. OK try again. Focus. Click. Gosh, I'm so looking forward to seeing this shot in all it's massive megapixel   glory back home on my 1920x1200 screen ...

 

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8 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Au contraire.  Let's say the battery is the same size. Is the body? And by the way, the processor is over 2 years old. 

The engine in a M is in a very tight space and has had issues with cooling since the M10s intro.  I'm absolutely sick to death of this stupid notion that if someone, in an utterly different design space accomplished something, then of course any one else can in a completely different context can easily as well.  Sorry thats utter BS and invariably comes from folks who've never been involved in a complex engineering effort. If things were that simple, iPhones would be IMacs. And yeah, Corollas would be Ferraris.

Now, I'm perfectly happy to accept the camera is not perfect and that there are issues folks would like addressed, but designing a device with over 1100 discrete components in a very tight package means there are going to be compromises.  Computing power, clock speeds and heat dissipation among them.  And if you have to turn down the wick to ensure the camera isn't locking up due to thermal issues or frying components, thats what do. Since everyone here thinks all this crap is so simple, just go get in there and figure out how to double overclock the processor. Should make your startup faster. Let me know how well it winds up working. 

True, The D850 body is a bit larger than the M11.
Im just saying that Leica could improve the speed of these cameras.  
Fair, the Maestro III is from the SL2, so it is a lil old.
The D850 is 5yrs old as well with a processor from 2016. 

Yes the M is a tight space, and yes there are limitations because of that.   And in reality, the startup speed of the Ms has never been an issue.  I never felt my M10R was slow to startup, or my M10, or M9 or M8 or any of them.   None of them had something audible that indicates the startup, and thus accentuates the slow startup speed.  
Funny you should mention iPhones and Imacs.   While the iphone is likely still slower, the iPad with M1 chips was faster in a lot of ways than a top spec Mac Pro from a few years ago while consuming less power and producing less heat  So processor technology has improved by leaps and bounds in the past few years.   However i would like to point out, that while i agree its a terrible idea to overlock an M, and that heat issues are likely the cause of the slower clock speeds.  Heat issues that come from a tight space.  
I could also point out that if heat issues in the M are that bad, maybe having an always on sensor, that would be producing heat is a bad idea.  

And i dont think anyone here is saying its super simple to design an M, i feel a lot of people are saying it would've been simple to include things that were already in an M

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vor 35 Minuten schrieb Sailronin:

My M lenses look great on a Sony a7r4 with 61 mega pixels, have that "Leica look" for 1/3 the price plus has IBIS and pixel shift ability to make really large (over 250mp) still life/landscapes.  After my M8 and M9 (primary camera for 8 years) I've moved to analog MP. My next digital M lens camera will be an SL2, far better EVF than M11.

I believe that for people who prefer (just)  EVF it makes not much sense to buy a camera with an optical rangefinder. On the other hand for people who like an optical rangefinder...the SL2 or Sony do not offer it.

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vor 36 Minuten schrieb Datsch:

I almost bought one yesterday. Then I thought to myself, what would the actual shooting experience be like? That made up my mind ... 😆

 

Taking a picture using the M-D: Aperture. Shutter speed. Focus. Click.


Taking a picture using the M11: Aperture. Shutter speed. Oh, wait, the sun's come out, I'm wide open and need a faster shutter, but I'm already on 4000th OK, go to bulb  mode, take camera away from eye, click umm, no, finger to slide up to 8000th, ok, now try again. Hmmmmm lots of green in this shot will the AWB be OK? Gosh, let's try the  new gray card option, camera down from eye again, which menu was it again, OK got it, click, no you can use touch, move the cross to the sky hey it's England the whole sky  is grey right but not today it's actually blue oh well try the inside of my camera case, that's 18% gray. Right got it set, camera up to eye again. Hmmmm is this really a   great shot, deserving of the whole 60MP? Dunno, I'm a bit low on disk space back home, let's try 36MP, camera off eye menu menu click click all sorted gosh that was fast  this is soooo Wesentliche right? Hmmmm I'd like to be a bit closer but there's a fence in the way, how about cropping? Yeah great, use the 75mm framelines instead of the  50mm. That's ummm 50 times 1.3 that's 15 carry the 1 errr that's only 65mm rats so what's 1.8? a bit less than 100 I guess, call it 90 drat that's too long. We'll go with 1.3. I set it on the thumbwheel function button press snazzy, eh? Ooops pressed it too long, now it's giving me options for reprogramming it ummm well let's try to do it in  the menu instead, menu menu page page page scoll scroll arrow arrow ok got it. Hmmmm aren't I cropping the 36MP even lower now? Drat, change it back, oh yeah I forgot  that's on the top button function button, ok cool changed back, great. Now ready to frame up again, raise camera to my eye, oh, the sun has changed, there's more light  round the edges of the frame through the trees ... am I on matrix metering? Best check, nope, still on centre weighted from a few shots ago, let's flip it back to matrix.   There, move speed up one stop. Phew all ready to go! Click. Hmmmm nothing's happening. Turn the camera around in my hand. What's that blinking red light in the viewfinder   window [takes blurry picture of own face] ahh! Self timer from when I used the tripod by that last stream! Back into the menus again, 2s no, 12s, no 0s right that's off  phew lets go! Click. Aaaaaargh! Forgot to focus after all that. OK try again. Focus. Click. Gosh, I'm so looking forward to seeing this shot in all it's massive megapixel   glory back home on my 1920x1200 screen ...

 

for me...M-D would be: Aperture. Shutter speed. Focus. Click. ...hope and pray that exposure is ok, go home, transfer to computer and see if you were lucky

if you want to shoot a Nocti in bright light don't forget to screw on a grey filter to avoid overexposure

M11: Aperture. Shutter speed. Focus. Click, have a good feeling that exposure is ok, due to advanced exp metering; if it is important to get the shot: doublecheck on the display, and in case its not okay take another shot (or check before you take the main shot)

 

I do however see how the MD is the closest to film shooting experience, and I can see the "charme". 

 

 

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For everybody who thinks that all the reviewers are now the golden standard for an opinion - and I believe this thread here contains a lot of eligible worries, @elmars created a lovely shutter video at 1/4000 - thanks for that. You can easily compare it on your own (not the actual user experience but you can estimate whether this will influence you in a good or a bad way). Just get your M camera and play around with that.

 

I also have to add that one post mentioned that only a few flagship cameras are below some given startup time (sorry, too many postings to review again), I believe 1.5 seconds were quoted. I don't care if that is true. The super expensive M11 camera should have implemented the essence of photography, a landmark of Leica, a pure german engineering thing. Leica ever concentrated on form follows function and bringing the best stuff together. They should deliver a hell of a startup time! And if you are comparing some things or another with an M10 (released in 2017) and the M10P (released in 2018) - that means 4 to 5 years of technical innovations or german awesome engineering power. You shouldn't refer to these devices as, yeah well, it's basically as good as that.

I get that most people seem to just don't care about that. That's okay, but then I dislike the marketing slogans like essence of photography or the decisive moment. It's a stupid RF camera for a reason. And yeah, that's my x-th post about that with tons of emotions in it, and I'm loving that I'm raging a bit about that. That's passion! I don't buy an M camera for doing just normal photos - I don't want anything else to be an extension of myself and to travel the world with me. I am actually using these cameras on a regular basis and these are my only cameras. So yeah, I do care! And I was in full anticipation mode for the release and it broke my heart (multiple times in a row).

Edited by BJohn
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1 hour ago, neekon said:

And i dont think anyone here is saying its super simple to design an M, i feel a lot of people are saying it would've been simple to include things that were already in an M

I recognize you are not. Others... well.

As long as we're bitchin, lets change the subject I will now tell you all the definitive reason why you should not buy an M11.  Mine just arrived and frankly, I'm utterly disappointed. Especially with all the reviewers, even the nicest guy on the face of the earth, Jono for not stating this very first thing in their reviews. 

They changed the box! No more chest of drawers. It's just a camera in a box!!! At first I thought they sent me a Fuji by mistake. What the hell!!!  It's not Christmas in January if opening the box isn't the best part. Outrageous. End of an era. Total disappointment. Depression. Despair. Startup times... Phooey!  Where the hell is that beautiful one of a kind box?!? 😂

Ok, ok, breath, breath. Slowly in, out.  Sigh... I'll learn to live with it.

 

 

 

 

 

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