OhOh, future of CL?

[dkCambridgeshire]

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1 hour ago, cpclee said:

I think the live view "failure" you are referring to is the automatic power-off.  When you use adapted lenses and are just turning the focusing and aperture rings manually, the CL doesn't know that you are working and will power off automatically after a while.  I ran into the same issue and took me a moment to realise what just happened.  

With native TL lenses anything you do, including manual focusing which is by wire, informs the camera that you are still working.  

Nope ... quite often live view was absent from start-up ...  tried everything to remedy ... some trips were aborted because cameras would not switch on properly 

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[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Michael Markey said:

I`m not sure what you mean by image quality but from what I`ve seen the colours produced by Fuji cameras are ,to my eyes ,superior to the Leica colour palette .

Are you talking JPGs? Fuji-s are very strong with JPG files. I do not feel that my Fuji cameras produce raw files with better colors than what I get with my CL.

[Michael Markey]

12 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Are you talking JPGs? Fuji-s are very strong with JPG files. I do not feel that my Fuji cameras produce raw files with better colors than what I get with my CL.

Frankly I can`t say ... I only know that I`ve been impressed with their film simulations.

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, Michael Markey said:

Frankly I can`t say ... I only know that I`ve been impressed with their film simulations.

Yes, Fuji's film simulations (JPG only) are pretty cool. You can also achieve great results with Cobalt or RNI profiles. Cobalt supports Leica CL and has standard Fuji film simulations that can be applied to raw files.

[lct]

25 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Are you talking JPGs? Fuji-s are very strong with JPG files. I do not feel that my Fuji cameras produce raw files with better colors than what I get with my CL.

Matter of tastes but i need to reduce orange and cyan saturation on my Fuji raw files generally. Not a big deal but i find CL raw files easier to convert in PP. 

[Michael Markey]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

Matter of tastes but i need to reduce orange and cyan saturation on my Fuji raw files generally. Not a big deal but i find CL raw files easier to convert in PP. 

Yes ... I don`t have many PP skills myself and one of the joys of shooting Leica cameras is the DNG files .

I`m a fan of Sony for their AF abilities ,which a sorely miss , but the Sony processing software (for me) is a nightmare .

[jaapv]

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3 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Nope ... quite often live view was absent from start-up ...  tried everything to remedy ... some trips were aborted because cameras would not switch on properly 

Possibly an eye sensor and switching defect.Mine had that twice.

[thedruid]

I'm pretty much brand agnostic, I use several brands for my work. A big problem for APSc in general is the four full frame cameras that are selling below $1800, you can dismiss the size if you want, the user experience too, but you are in the minority. I personally find the Z series of bodies the best handling of the bunch, I still have my CL and a few lenses, I'm sitting on the fence watching to see if/what happens.

[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, lct said:

Not sure what big FF cameras have to do with compact crop ones but there is indeed a market for APS cameras and lenses.

Isn’t that the point?  Leica makes photographic products.  If there was a market which supported their products, they’d be in that market …

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Leica has a bit of a problem whatever they intend to do. 

• Discontinue the APSC line without replacement? Say nothing, and hope no one notices so they can sell off their warehouse stock (bodies & lenses). End result: APSC system owners upset, because they won't get the improvements and modernisation they want.
• Replace the CL with a CL2 in the same lineage perhaps next year when there are more chips around? Say nothing, to stop sales of warehouse stock (just bodies) falling off a cliff six months early. End result: APSC owners may forgive the lack of info; those who sold their systems will not.
• Replace the CL with a full frame compact EVIL body perhaps next year when there are more chips around? Say nothing, to stop sales of warehouse stock (both bodies and lenses) falling off a cliff six months early. End result: APSC owners upset because their lenses have no real future in the new system, except as crop lenses.

 

I think this is right.  Leica tried to push this market with the TL/CL, and has not released a new camera since 2017 in APS-C format, and seems to have stopped producing new lenses as well.  Has it left that market segment, or is it just waiting to see what happens - including the reaction from customers in that market.  On this forum, we have a small segment (CL owners) as a subset of an even smaller representative of the market (forum members) …

[lct]

16 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Isn’t that the point?  Leica makes photographic products.  If there was a market which supported their products, they’d be in that market …

I see a market for affordable crop cameras and lenses but none for expensive ones anymore, if there was one ever. I may be totally wrong though as often .

[IkarusJohn]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

I see a market for affordable crop cameras and lenses but none for expensive ones anymore, if there was one ever. I may be totally wrong though as often .

I think so too.

[adan]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

Leica tried to push this market with the TL/CL, and has not released a new camera since 2017 in APS-C format, and seems to have stopped producing new lenses as well.  Has it left that market segment, or is it just waiting to see what happens - including the reaction from customers in that market. 

It has been my impression all along that Leica used the 2011 investment from Blackstone to basically "throw a bunch of new ideas against the wall and see what sticks."

TL, Q, SL, CL.

Which is not a bad thing - it promoted experiments in new technology as well as testing the market. Somewhere I read that the Q was originally a testbed for the technologies of the SL (sensor-based AF, software lens corrections, EVF), that worked so well that it quickly became a product in its own right, beating the more complex SL system to market.

.........................

I would not automatically assume that a period of "benign neglect" of the CL/TL system means "end of life."

It seems to me that there is not a lot of room (hah!) for development - at this point - given the APS format and the expressed desire for Barnack-size.

Lenses? The native compact range already covers 11-135mm ("effective" 16mm-202mm). The 35 f/1.4 TL is not exactly "Barnack-sized" - which just goes to show what the limits are. Longer lenses? I doubt Leica could produce a 90-280 for TL format that would be significantly smaller/cheaper than the SL version, while retaining the same IQ.

However, in a group interview last July, Peter Karbe did say that the "fifth generation" Leica lens technologies (after classic, APO, ASPH, FLE) will pursue size reductions - but that is in the future. The 35mm APO-Summicron-M may point the new direction (compare size to the 35 APO-Summicron-SL).

Sensor? Leica may be introducing a 60Mpixel sensor in the M11. But cut that silicon in half (figuratively) to make an APS sensor, and you only get 30 Mpixels. Not a significant advance over 24.

EVF? Maybe an upgrade to 4K pixels - but probably not enough to justify a "CL2" by itself. And I expect there are still limits on "how many LED pixels can dance on the head of a pin." And what that implies for the overall physical LED size, and thus the compactness of the finder and camera.

Edited November 23, 2021 by adan

[FrozenInTime]

11 minutes ago, adan said:

 

However, in a group interview last July, Peter Karbe did say that the "fifth generation" Leica lens technologies (after classic, APO, ASPH, FLE) will pursue size reductions - but that is in the future. The 35mm APO-Summicron-M may point the new direction (compare size to the 35 APO-Summicron-SL).

 

That's a lens I'm worried about - engineering design stressed on a knife edge of tolerance :  soft glass, special handling and alignment - and a price to reflect that.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/318553-review-the-new-leica-apo-summicron-m-35mm-f2-asph/?do=findComment&comment=4270897

[NZDavid]

The Barnack Leicas were, of course, the original "full-frame" cameras. Oskar Barnack, when designing the first rangefinder version, is reputed to have laid his metal ruler across the camera top and said it had to fit within that size. 

What's technically possible changes and that affects design considerations. The IQ of smaller sensor digital cameras has improved. But then, it has become possible to make a smaller "full-frame" sensor digital camera. It would make a lot of sense to reduce the number of sensor sizes. 

Which would you prefer and why?

 

 

 

[cpclee]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

Possibly an eye sensor and switching defect.Mine had that twice.

how much did such a repair cost you if I may ask?

[ramarren]

3 hours ago, NZDavid said:

The Barnack Leicas were, of course, the original "full-frame" cameras. Oskar Barnack, when designing the first rangefinder version, is reputed to have laid his metal ruler across the camera top and said it had to fit within that size. 

What's technically possible changes and that affects design considerations. The IQ of smaller sensor digital cameras has improved. But then, it has become possible to make a smaller "full-frame" sensor digital camera. It would make a lot of sense to reduce the number of sensor sizes. 

Which would you prefer and why?

At the time of their introduction, the Barnack "leichte Kamera" was a miniature camera ... not a "full frame" camera at all. It was designed to be a clip-test exposure meter for cinema use. Oskar then basically doubled the length of a 35mm movie camera frame to get a little bit more negative area for better quality in still images... 

I shoot with formats from 8x11 mm to 6x9 cm in film, and with everything from iPhone to Hasselblad 907x in digital. Each format is full frame in its own context, and all render differently.

G

 

[NZDavid]

I was referring to "full frame" in respect to its current usage in digital photography, which is why I intentionally used quote marks. It's a silly label. "One-inch" is inaccurate, too.

My main point remains: There are too many formats!

 

[Michael Markey]

14 hours ago, SrMi said:

Yes, Fuji's film simulations (JPG only) are pretty cool. You can also achieve great results with Cobalt or RNI profiles. Cobalt supports Leica CL and has standard Fuji film simulations that can be applied to raw files.

Thanks for that ..... I`ll have a look.

Totally ignorant about that side of the job I`m afraid 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[RM8]

5 hours ago, ramarren said:

At the time of their introduction, the Barnack "leichte Kamera" was a miniature camera ... not a "full frame" camera at all. It was designed to be a clip-test exposure meter for cinema use. Oskar then basically doubled the length of a 35mm movie camera frame to get a little bit more negative area for better quality in still images... 

I shoot with formats from 8x11 mm to 6x9 cm in film, and with everything from iPhone to Hasselblad 907x in digital. Each format is full frame in its own context, and all render differently.

G

 

If one's interested in the mm:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/35_mm_movie_film#/media/File%3A35mm_film_format_with_optical_soundtrack.svg

[Dopaco]

As others have done, I will give my opinion on these 2 wonderful CL and TL2 cameras. If Leica chooses to say goodbye to the APSC system because it prefers the FF system, it leaves a hole to fill with a powerful little camera, which Sigma is now filling with its powerful little FP L camera, but this camera is not Leica.

Supposedly if I put myself in the mind of a decisive Leica executive and they have already agreed NO to the APSC system, I would take the thousands of aluminum blocks they claim to have from the TL2 system and with minor modifications I would get TL2, FF, with a menu of CL interfaces and TL2, would improve the screen and leave some outputs for optional accessories such as the GPS viewer and others.

There is space for it, see attached photos.

It is my simple opinion without pretending at any time that it can be the best and the true on

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